Dangerous leafsprings?

[Kael]

I've recently taken interest in forging.

Forge is still in construction, I'm going to use a piped-air coal burner, and I'm currently collecting scrap metal to work with.

My question is this: are leafsprings dangerous to work with? As in, will they crack and/or explode when heated and worked, due to the fact that they are "pre-tensioned"? I'd rather not end up with shrapnel in me. I heard this from a very reputable source (ag. mech. teacher at my school, but want a few other opinions to that I don't end up wasting materials by avoiding leafspring salvage.

Any help is hugely appreciated!

[Jeff Seelye]

Kael, The best advice I can give you at this time is... give yourself an education before you play. Join a Blacksmith group, get some good books (many have been on the book review here on IFI) Start yourself off with mild steel. See how it works. Leave alloy and higher carbon steels (example: leafsprings) for later.
That, by the way, is a good question. Heating it will not make it explode. Working it at the wrong heat can make it break. Quenching it wrong can make it shatter depending on Carbon Content or alloys. Or nothing may happen until you make a tool with it and it shatters in your hand because of the stress. Stay with mild (low carbon) steel for a while.

[Marksnagel]

Hey Kael,

Welcome to IFI and your new hobby.

First and foremost let me stress safety. There can never be enough posts about shop/forge safety. Always wear PPE (personal protective equipment.) Safety glasses are a must. Not a nice to have, a MUST!

Leather, not nylon or plastic gloves or at least a glove for the tong hand. (BLACK IS STILL HOT)

Clothes that are not flamable or will melt when hot pieces of steel are introduced. Cotton is best. A leather apron is great.

Leather shoes/boots that cover your feet. I have had a hot bead of iron go down into the top of a loose fitting boot and dance around on the top of my foot before while welding. Not fun but the dance it made me do was quite entertaining to those around me.

Loose fitting clothing around machinery is asking for trouble.

A little forethought into safety and the days operations goes a long way and lets you come back the next day to forge some more.

I haven't covered all the safety items to think about but others will chime in.

I don't want you to get fearful of working on the forge but I want you to respect it. It is a great hobby for me. Best I've ever had.

Remember the 7 P's

Proper prior preparation prevents xxxx poor performance.

Mark<><

[Kael]

Thanks for the replies!

Completely agree with your standing on PPE. I do a considerable amount of woodworking, and have had an education in arboriculture, so safety is key. Fully intend to wear goggles, gloves, boots, and long pants/sleeved shirts when working. I've purchased several basic books that go into detail about technique and tool crafting, and I want to find a group at some point in the near future, woould either of you know of any in southeastern Massachusetts?

Thanks again for the help, by the way. I'll stick to pracicing with rebars and cheaper scrap before I try anything complicated!

[forgemaster]

Spring steel will not explode when you put it in the fire, he's pulling your chain. Just be careful when pulling the spring apart from the pack though, use 2 G clamps to hold it when you undo the centre bolt, this is where it may fly apart, as most spring packs are under tension, held by the centre bolt and the clips. Yeh and do the safety stuff, glasses etc.

Phil

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Kael, glad to have ya. How about putting your general location in your header? That way when we old timers are traveling in your neighborhood we won't have to rely on our memories if we want a snack or place to nap. You also might be surprised to discover smiths living close by who enjoy showing someone the tricks as much as I do.

Mark's PPE lineup is good though I have a couple things to add. Wool is a good natural fiber, it's really HARD to get burning and the smell is something you are not going to miss. Best be are no open topped pockets so hot stuff doesn't find it's way in. In similar light NO cuffs and you pants should cover your boot tops.

Sleeves and long pants aren't really necessary as hot scale, red hot dingleberries and such will bounce off bare hide quick enough you might not even notice. This does NOT apply to metal at black heat say around 400-450f. ever see a steak or burger stick in a hot frying pan?

If you're making lots of hot flying metal a cap is a good option as well. Hearing protection won't hurt, especially while you're developing control, it doesn't take many misblows hitting the anvil to make your ears ring for the remainder of the day.

Use some common sense with the PPE though, it's entirely too easy to overdo it to the point you become a walking trip hazard. Or should I say a stumbling, bumbling triphazard?

Have I mentioned addictive? Blacksmithing is highly addictive, after all you must, MUST I SAY, play with FIRE and HIT things with hammers. Need I say more?

Frosty the Lucky.

[Drewed]

Leaf springs will not explode when heated. Unless you try to heat the entire pack of springs and the stars align just right...

As for ppe, I would NOT use gloves. Better to learn to not grab hot metal, then to get in the habit of doing it with gloves. Now I do have a pair of gloves for handling sharp metal, i.e. just out of the hack saw, or cutting sheet, but they come off when the metal hits the heat.

[pkrankow]

If you are working with leaf spring you need to learn about hardening, annealing, normalizing, and tempering. You also need to learn WHY. Leaf spring is medium to high carbon steel, and responds to heat in several ways.

It is safe to use for appropriate uses, and can be a fine practice and tool material, but you need to know something about it unlike mild.

Phil

[Kael]

So in a general recap:

-start small
-find an expert
-don't be afraid of leafsprings
-wear PPE
-don't be stupid

Drewed: I've managed to learn that in my 18 years of life, heh

Frosty: Makes sense. And I like your take on the "addictive" aspect of it!

Forgemaster: Clamps. Noted. Thanks!

Phil: I've read up on it a bit, and I know for a fact that I'll never understand all of this until i can get in some hands-on. I need to find someone to work with, and pick their brain.

Thanks again!

[tdaleh]

in the top of the blacksmithing section there is a post called find a blacksmith group click on it an look up what group is close to you

[Kael]

in the top of the blacksmithing section there is a post called find a blacksmith group click on it an look up what group is close to you

Checked around. I live in Southeastern MA, so there really isn't much

[JNewman]

ISN'T MUCH ???!!!

You are in the area for the New England Blacksmiths NEB They have a teaching facility and it is only 2 hours from you and probably sometimes have meetings closer than that.

[Kael]

Wow....I can't believe I missed that......

Definately need to look into this! Sorry about that!

[Pat Roy]

Wearing gloves is a personal thing. I'm not going to insist that you do or don't. I wear one on my tong hand, my choice, you decide for yourself. Scale will not necessarily bounce off your skin I have found, so don't expose any more skin than necessary and wear your PPE.

After looking around a bit, I'm sure you will find there is quite a bit of smithing going on in Southern New England.

[Jeff Seelye]

Thanks for the replies!

Completely agree with your standing on PPE. I do a considerable amount of woodworking, and have had an education in arboriculture, so safety is key. Fully intend to wear goggles, gloves, boots, and long pants/sleeved shirts when working. I've purchased several basic books that go into detail about technique and tool crafting, and I want to find a group at some point in the near future, woould either of you know of any in southeastern Massachusetts?

Thanks again for the help, by the way. I'll stick to pracicing with rebars and cheaper scrap before I try anything complicated!

Hey Kael, If you want to try rebar, then a good start would be to look up the carbon content of rebar OR draw out a small thin piece, quench it, put your safety glasses on and tap it on an uneven surface. When it breaks, look at the broken end and see what you can learn about carbon content from what you just did. Did it bend before it broke or did it snap? Be safe & learn lots. Jeff

[Jeff Seelye]

You don't have to bury yourself in metallurgy, but if you are making tools, You need to learn Carbon content, annealing, hardening, Quenching and tempering. I would rather see it and ask questions than look at a book. But both will get you in the right direction. Have fun, Jeff

[Dave H.]

When I am working on a power hammer I wear cloth hot mill gloves on both hands, If I am working on the anvil I just wear one of these gloves on my left"Tong" hand. One thing I cn say is use eye protection ALL the time in the shop. It just makes sense.

Dave Huffman

[ThomasPowers]

One other warning about leaf springs: many smiths pick up broken pieces alongside of the roadway. The typical failure mode for these is that under stress or age *multiple* micro cracks get started 1 of which finally catastrophically propagates. This leaves the others to be found *after* you have just spent 12 hours forging and grinding a blade out of it!

For items that "count" it's a good idea to use "new" material purchased from a spring repair place as drops or from one of the places that jack up vehicles and so toss the "good"springs to add others. (and again try to get ones with the least use/abuse on them)

Heating the steel above the dislocation climb temperature will "relax" any work hardening in it and forging temp is above that temperature.

(Note that when working the higher carbon, higher alloy steels you can overheat them as well as underheat them too! Leaf springs are a common material for smiths to use for tooling and for knives/swords---if you get it "new" it's cheap, easy to find and works well with blacksmithing processes.)

[Kael]

So whe there's one crack, there's bound to be more? Makes sense.

My cousin's a mechanic, I'll check with him later this week.

[ZIG]

I've worked in construction all my life. And above all. Please. Please. Find you the proper eye protection and keep them on. You can't imagine the dangers from just being in the shop or around any hot or cold steel.
Make that your first priority above all. Ear plugs are great. And When you get used to putting those two thing on before even starting. You'll Be the better for It.
We gotta wear safety glasses at work And they get foggy and they get sweat on them but you'll get in the habit That you want feel right without those ittems on. Buy extra For vistors or helpers.
They make better glasses and plugs now that are really comfortable.
As far as getting started. You've done yourself a good service by getting on this site.
You may not be able to do this now. But I can't recommend mark asperys books enough. Until you could buy those. Definitely go to his YouTube site. Their are many others. But you gotta make your tools to do alot of things. And he's about as good as it gets on inspiring future smiths.

But read alot on body position. Its easier to learn good work practices rather than hurt yourself and try to undo that damage.
Most will wanna hammer away immediately. Which is great. But you need to start out safely and. Correctly. Or you Might end up in the way alot of us older guys on here are. Sore everything.

But seriously. Eye protection. Scale will find a eyeball from across the room and a gust of wind will blow grinding dust right in them too.
I've had more stuff in my eyes and Had to have alot of rust rings cut out of them. So hang your glasses between you and the anvil. So you gotta put them on When you walk in.

This is coming from someone That has pushed crews at work For the last twenty years and have to remind the guys all the time about their glasses. Cause its so hot there. But hate to nag anyone. But want everyone to see their kids or grandkids.
Just start our with good safe practices. And read all you can. And watch out for yourself and everyone else , while using a wire power wheel on a grinder. We always holler " POWERWHEE,COMING ON. Just in case someone has their glasses off. That is my worst fear ,losing a eye. I Don't even fish without glasses. So be careful. And good luck with everything.
Enjoyed the replies.

[Kael]

Well said. All of that! I'm a student of arbiriculture and do a fair bit of woodworking, so safety glasses/ANSI goggles have always been a must for me. I'm also definately going to use ear protection.

What is the name of the book you mentioned? I'll try to find a copy.

[Glenn]

Depending on the project at hand, assemble a full set of PPE, personal protection equipment. This would include but not be limited to cotton or natural fiber clothing, leather boots (steel toed if needed), leather apron, gloves appropriate for the project, eye protection, face protection such as a full face shield, ear protection, ear plugs and ear muffs, and head protection such as a cap, or hard hat. Each level of protection should be applied for that specific project. If in doubt wear it all. PPE also includes fire extinguishers, a clear path to work and use as a quick exit, a communication system to call for help, and a message system where you can leave notes to others as to where you are and what your doing and the time interval to check on you.

The MOST important part of the PPE is knowledge, so research and do your homework before you start. You MUST research and learn as much as possible about a procedure, material, tool, etc before you flip the switch to the on position or just throw the metal into the fire. For instance, Heavy metal poisoning is a real and present danger. When using known or unknown materials, there are unknown dangers you may not be aware of, so ask others for help as you have done in this thread.

To jump start your knowledge and education in blacksmithing, seek out others, seek out information, and ask questions. Read all you can find and take that information to the forge and put it to use. Then come back and ask more specific questions based on what you have experienced at the anvil. Practice a technique or process until you understand the how and why of what you are doing, and it becomes comfortable to you.

There are times when you need additional help on hand, such as during heavy lifting, working with awkward sizes or unbalanced objects or loads, or working where you can become trapped. This help should be able to call for help in your absence. The dog, no matter how good, is not it. If you need an additional manpower to do the job safely, do not dismiss the need, get the assistance.

There will always be someone with more knowledge that can show you different things, and there will always be someone with less knowledge that you can show different things. The most important part of all this is to then share your knowledge with others, show them how, and encourage them to learn.

[ZIG]

@ Kael
If your referring to my suggestion on books. Look up mark aspery. He has two volumes out. One is all about making Your own tooling. They are expensive but you'll never out grow them.
Can't recall the names of them. Search and it'll be the first thing up.
But they cover it all. Look on the book review portion on here.
And view the blueprint section too. Good ideas and instruction For anyone.

[philip in china]

Enough has been said on glasses but I will just add my bit!

My eyesight isn't good so I wear gas permeable contact lenses almost all the time. When in the shop I rest my eyes from these and wear prescription bifocal safety glasses. My current pair is, I think, about 4 years old. They are covered with marks where various particles have hit the glass and welded to it. That would ALL have been on my eyelids or worse in my eyes!

I also always wear steel toe capped boots. I ensure all my students do the same. The tools are heavy, the materials we use are heavy and so is the fuel if you are burning coal

I rarely use gloves- really only when arc welding or grinding. Some guys don't use them with a bench grinder as they could get "dragged into" the wheel. I suppose that that is true but I still use them as a wheel or a wire brush can cause such nasty injuries to the hands.

One important safety item is to take your brain with you into the shop and keep it switched on at all times. I also stop working when I make a second silly mistake. Tiredness causes lots of accidents and is often indicated by trivial mistakes.

BTW leaf springs don't explode. If you clamp a piece and try to straighten it by hitting it cold then expect the hammer to arc round and hit you on the head. There was a lot about it on a different site where a guy, who claimed to be the greatest sword maker on the planet, was doing more or less that. He was making what sounded like over sized machetes out of springs. It is a good source of good steel. I use it a lot.

[Bentiron1946]

"expect the hammer to arc round and hit you on the head"..................So true

Yes, it is wise not to work in the shop when you are fatigued, lot of damage to your person happens when in that state and never do it when in a rush or angry either. :blink: