joshua.M Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Basicly, how do you figure out a quote. I have been asked to do some jobs and need quotes and i want to know how to do it accuratly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Basicly, how do you figure out a quote. I have been asked to do some jobs and need quotes and i want to know how to do it accuratly In my understanding, Quotes are a fixed price contract, Estimates are a guide price. Any taxes to be added at the relevant rate Your level of experience and financial situation may also affect your return needed, that is something for you to decide. Take all your costs into consideration, times, materials, overheads including your pay for the duration of the job, and add on/include any outside contractors/processes, that would be a minimum, add margins (extra profit) to come up with the initial figure, Keep a record of these figures to work to if you get to make the job and keep a record when making the job of times, materials, etc to check on your progress and to refer to for future similar jobs and you can then start to buid up your own experience data base. If you don't cover these costs, even as a hobbyist, you may as well just amuse yourself and give stuff away, (whole new thread there) Costs and what you charge the customer are two different things, and everyone has their own take on how to charge, and what works for them. No doubt others will give their opinions too, use what works for you.I think this subject has been covered before in earlier threads in some detail, If memory serves correct, follow Dave Custers postings under Fiery Furnace Forge, an excellent example of staring in blacksmithing from scratch. Good luck with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Everything will cost more, and take longer than you expect they will. Don't be afraid to price a job at what it should cost, even if you think it is too high. I never really cared enough when I had my machine, and fab shop. As mentioned above, there are other threads on this subject that should cover what you are looking for. What type of jobs are these? Architectural, crafts, art, industrial? Each has its own idiosyncrasies when it comes to pricing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinkererham Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I'm new here, this subject intrigues me. My favorite people I allow to pay what they think my work is worth. Usually they pay more than I think they would. Repeat jobs I can do a good quote for, although I'm sure most of the time I could get more money. The most recent experience I had was a mistake on my part. A man asked if I could weld a small bracket for him and how much would I charge. I should have put my glasses on, after saying I could do the piece for 20 bucks he agreed to have me do it. After walking away I looked more closely, (putting my glasses on) then realized I had a cast iron bracket! After some thought on the way to my shop I realized a remake of the piece using hot rolled carbon steel (which I had in stock) would probably be faster and easier considering my equipment and facilities. The customer seemed thrilled when he got delivery, and I made $5 an hour, but stuck to my quote. I will wear my glasses during evaluations hence forth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 My best advice: Whatever the quote/estimate that you decide upon, do not rush to give the client a price. Sleep on it and review it in the morning. I can almost guarantee that the price you quote will go up. Two, never give an estimate off the top of your head as the client will always remember that price. Think before answering if you're put on the spot. Make an excuse that you need to price the materials etc. Take your time. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Figure out what you think the cost will be, materials is pretty straight forward, labor is tricky, then add 1/3 of that sum, material+ labor for profit, now multiply that by Pi x R x 4 and you will break even after working for the actual labor of .50/ hr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Clinton, I think you forget to factor in your grandmothers age and your dog's bithday? Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrandow Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I can only add the advice of a novice, part-time blacksmith, but if you can figure out, accurately, how long it will take, the rest should be relatively straightforward in terms of figuring out your shop rate. The tricky part, therefore, is figuring out how long it'll take. I would assume the key there is to have a record, either written or mental, of how long various things take. Thus, making up numbers at random, if you know it takes twenty minutes to make a scroll of type A, and fifteen minutes per foot to do a twist of type B, ten minutes to do a collar, five minutes to do a bend, and so on, you can figure out how many of those things are going into your design and then come up with an estimate. And then double it, change from hours to days, .... :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Seelye Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Basicly, how do you figure out a quote. I have been asked to do some jobs and need quotes and i want to know how to do it accuratly One of the things I did was to break down the job into as many parts as I could easily do. Then I kept track of sketching and drawing, material, cutting, forge time, fit up, weld, finish prep, paint, overhead & the Governor. I figured out I loose more on final prep and paint. So... I quit painting! Told a customer what the price was without paint, he said he didn't want to get another bid for painting. So, I told him to let the painter forge it. He said the painter doesn't forge, to which I replied "and I don't paint" OK, that sounded funny, but, I did paint the job, but I learned that I am slower at painting and would rather give that part away, I also bid paint higher now or send it out for bids myself. Learn your weaknesses, get faster. Don't sell yourself short, for everyone who does makes it harder for the rest of us to make money off our work. We all are in this together ( Part time & full) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 A very good article on business and pricing by Nol Putnam is located at: http://www.anvilmag.com/smith/blcasabs.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Whenever I am presented with a new brief by clients, I always make a test piece. Be it for a railing job then I will do a section of rails, a fire companion set, I'll make one of the pieces, etc. The gives you the opportunity to accurately work out the materials costs, and the time it takes for making the piece. As it usually takes longer to make the first "thing" whatever it might be, it usually works to the advantage. Gives me time to think about the project and troubleshoot to possibly foresee any problems that might occur with it. It also allows you to work on the design, find improvements etc. Most of my work is sculptural though so is completely individual to the client, so this method works very well for me. I have never had a client then turn around after making the test piece and decide not to go ahead with it, and if they did, then you still have the test piece to have as a sample for other potential clients, or in some cases sell on. I have found since doing this my quoting is a lot more accurate than it had been. I also factor the time involved in making the test piece into the final quote, so that I get paid for that time. There are numerous formulas for working out your price once you've worked out your time, materials costs x 2, plus overheads, plus labour, plus any other informed estimates for finishing such as galv/powdercoat or paint.. etc, then add on as much as you think you can get away with... :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 One of the things I did was to break down the job into as many parts as I could easily do. Then I kept track of sketching and drawing, material, cutting, forge time, fit up, weld, finish prep, paint, overhead & the Governor. I figured out I loose more on final prep and paint. So... I quit painting! Told a customer what the price was without paint, he said he didn't want to get another bid for painting. So, I told him to let the painter forge it. He said the painter doesn't forge, to which I replied "and I don't paint" OK, that sounded funny, but, I did paint the job, but I learned that I am slower at painting and would rather give that part away, I also bid paint higher now or send it out for bids myself. Learn your weaknesses, get faster. Don't sell yourself short, for everyone who does makes it harder for the rest of us to make money off our work. We all are in this together ( Part time & full) Depends on what the job is, a finish is usually part of the job, If work has to be transported to site and fitted, then I will supply in a primed condition (gives you a chance of a final once over on your work)then offer the paint as an option at an additional price, most will take care of that themselves. Or find someone local who will do the job and recommend or let them do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Dug up an old page from an ABANA chapter newsletter. Yes, I still use file cabinets, Luddite that I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadicdrew Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Thanks for these quoting outlines! I'll be filing them away for when I've got my skills built up enough to begin marketing myself. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divermike Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 well I am just a hobbyist who seems to be doing a lot of jobs for people, and here is my formula, it has worked well. 60% up front, 30% at the halfway point and 10% at final delivery, not to be paid unless complete satisfaction is met. people get all happy about the last part, it shows my comittment to their happyness, no one has taken me up on it yet!! oh yeah, I always let them know that after the halfway point, any changes are on my dime, so I have approval / denial power on decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Hightower Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 You should be very competitive at $30 per hour. Estimate the time with a little fluff, mark up any material costs by 30% add labor and material together and you should be OK. Worst case if it takes twice as long you still make $15 an hour. If a customer wants to supply his own material this is OK too. It takes some of the risk out of the equation and you usually end up with some drop material. Scott Fab ManagerWelders360.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 You should be very competitive at $30 per hour. Not in this neck of the woods. Oh, sure, you'ld be low bid. Good luck making ends meet, though. Other places you might be too high. Got to know the rates in the LOCAL economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Clad Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 A very good article on business and pricing by Nol Putnam is located at: http://www.anvilmag.com/smith/blcasabs.htm Thanks for posting this article, it is very helpful. I need to re-think how I charge customers, especially after a 40ft. railing job I did, ugh!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrandow Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 You should be very competitive at $30 per hour. I'm not entirely clear where the $30 per hour number you are citing is from. If it is from Nol Putnam's article, then the thing to bear in mind is that that article was written in 1996. Adjusting for inflation, that would be around $41.75 an hour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Stubbs Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I'm not entirely clear where the $30 per hour number you are citing is from. If it is from Nol Putnam's article, then the thing to bear in mind is that that article was written in 1996. Adjusting for inflation, that would be around $41.75 an hour. well Nol Putnam's article is very good but i really dont know anyone who would pay over a grand for a fireplace set. at least not in my kneck of the woods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Even Nol is using $60.00 ($75.00 adjusted) shop time. He's talking about most of one week of his billable hours. If you're just working part-time out of your garage, it doesn't matter much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Gilmore Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 well Nol Putnam's article is very good but i really dont know anyone who would pay over a grand for a fireplace set. at least not in my kneck of the woods. Jim, sometimes we don't know our customers until we meet them, and they spend $1650.00 for 3 tools and a stand. Sometimes in our neck of the woods, other times in some other area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abbeyornamental Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I agree with Glenn, the other side of attracting “that” customer is offering something different than what other shops in your area offer. That may mean great service, quality of work or a unique artistic talent that separates you from the rest of the pack. Once you have found that customer ( high end ) treat them well, they usually have friends that travel in the same circle. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajajoaquin Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 In my understanding, Quotes are a fixed price contract, Estimates are a guide price. Any taxes to be added at the relevant rate My understanding for US contract law is a bit different. The difference between quotes and proposals is in the point at which it's a legally binding contract. At what point is "acceptance" occuring? A Quotation ("Quote") is not a legally binding offer. The process is that you provide the quotation, and the client accepts. When you act on that acceptance, it becomes a contract. So if you write a quote, and then have second thoughts, or whatever, you're not committed. A Proposal, on the other hand, is considered accepted when the client accepts. So if you write up a proposal, and the client accepts, you're on! Keep in mind that my understanding is a result of working for a company that produced procurement software for government agencies, and what I learned as a result of that. I'm not formally trained in that capacity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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