Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 Just curious if his posting was pulled or if he deleted it or what? Inquiring mind want to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calala Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 Hey Grant maybe he was too humble to finish it. :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 I think our admin felt he was not being humble at all. if you search, the thread is locked an you will not have permission to view it. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divermike Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 it kinda seemed like a backdoor advertisement to me, thus I did not respond!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rthibeau Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 OBTW, he replaced the Forgemaster with a Poor Boy forge and now the kit is $500..... B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecelticforge Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 Sorry I missed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 $500 is still a bit steep but probably do-able for some folks; $1500 for a starter kit I felt was way out of line; especially since I know that a lot of people will not continue after a couple months of enthusiasm. (In fact there seems to be an inverse correlation between amount of money spent of starting up and longevity in the craft in my experience, anyone else run into this?) I feel a bit bad as I was rather harsh on him; end of the day low blood sugar played a part; but I felt that telling folks they were "saving" by spending so much seemed a bit out of line to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 (In fact there seems to be an inverse correlation between amount of money spent of starting up and longevity in the craft in my experience, anyone else run into this?) Well, having only my own, personal experience as a guide. I spent about $20 on a brake drum, another 30 at the scrap yard for bits and pieces to cobble up a forge, and about $35 for a big chunk of I beam as an anvil for the first year I was forging. Round it up to a $100 and I've been forging coming on six years this fall. Forge is currently on version 4, same old brake drum. Found a PW 104# anvil for just under $3/lb about a year into it. Post vise was another $40 a year after that. I'm probably at $500 in just cash outlay now, Time on the other hand.....my guess would be there's 3 hours of "cold" time for every hour of forging I get in. modifications of the set up, forge adjustments, the hours of anvil stump prep I don't even want to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKForge Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 I tend to agree with the correlation between amount spent and longevity in the craft. I think the spirit of blacksmithing that prevails within most of us revolves around the desire to do it ourselves whether it be scrounging for steel, making a forge, your own hammer, tongs and all of the tooling that goes with our art etc. You can't make your own tooling without thinking about all of the generations of blacksmiths before us that didn't have the ability to just whip out a credit card and buy a set of tools. Now does that mean that I don't buy tooling? Of course not. But again compared to other hobbies and crafts the initial investment to get into blacksmithing is so much lower allowing for you to get your feet wet and then spend the money once you really know what will fit your needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajajoaquin Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 I tell you what: I'm going to buy one of those starter kits. Because at $500, it's all ready $100 cheaper than I can buy just the anvil from blacksmith's Depot! Seriously, though: it kind of reminded me of something that happened years ago in the expedition camper market. A newcomer came in, acted really interested in the designs of some of the established names, and then opened up a camper company using other peoples' expertise without attribution. "all airspeed and no altitude" is how a friend of mine might describe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 It sure can take some money to tool up, we have guys that are trying to get in the neighborhood of $400.00 for a hand crank blower out here in beautiful CA. I would post the link but I would rather not give them a free plug, but there are two individuals on a popular web site offering champion 400 blowers, one guy is at $400.00 and the other guy "our buddy" has on listed for $375.00. Come on guys this is a $50.00 dollar item..... Let the buyer beware Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted T Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 I believe it was just back door advertizing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 I've seen a lot of examples like Me. Humble over the years, be it the guy who thinks buying a lathe makes him a machinist or the enthusiastic new comer who wants to solve his/er own troubles for everybody else like "saving blacksmithing from it's decline" or however he put it. I started to reply to the thread but tend to get tired of trying to tell kids things like making a sword isn't the way to learn blacksmithing or worse yet an adult who thinks because s/he spend 2-3x what I did on the tools s/he's more skilled at a craft. Trying to keep my head on the positive side of life, I'll give Tim the benefit of the doubt and put him in the catagory of inreallisticly idealistic beginner rather than scammer. No Thomas, you weren't too harsh, he was obviously too far from informed enough to "save" the craft so if hearing the straight poop straight up is too much for him he'll give up at the first real obstacle like a real burn. Having the tenacity to find, make and purchase your own tools and equipment has many benefits a "starter kit" robs you of. First it robs you of the education a person needs to locate hard to find items like oh say an anvil or decent tool steel, etc. Then it robs you of having to think of what you actually need to do the work. Seriously, you don't need much at all, a hammer, chisel, hack saw, a hole in the ground and something heavy to beat on, that's my MEL. (Minimum Equipment List) Tongs? I find a piece of green willow split at the end works well for a while. Then it robs you of the inflated price necessary to purchase someone elses pretty clueless idea of what's needed. I just hope that if Tim is a legitimate beginner and not someone trying to make a buck selling stuff inflated prices, he sticks around and actually begins the journey. Anywho, I've spent more time on this than I should have, I have a visitor on the way and Deb expects ME to help clean house! Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 I think I am the exception then. I am a well established "beginner". I owned a powerhammed before a real anvil and more tools than a crew of 20 should need. I think the reason it's worked for me is because I was working in metal already and tooling up to forge was just another "metal" category. Anyway I still consider myself a novice even though I have 50 grand in my "starter kit" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 OTOH I have owned 4 powerhammers that all together don't total to 1500 in base cost and two of those were working till the day we moved them! (and back working in another couple of days) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim McCoy Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 I got all I need to be a hobbyist blacksmith, tools, forge, coal, scrap steel, ASO's and a shed that I built and I have less than $300 invested out of pocket ... so, $500 or $1,500 is too much! :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecelticforge Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 I tell you what: I'm going to buy one of those starter kits. Because at $500, it's all ready $100 cheaper than I can buy just the anvil from blacksmith's Depot! Seriously, though: it kind of reminded me of something that happened years ago in the expedition camper market. A newcomer came in, acted really interested in the designs of some of the established names, and then opened up a camper company using other peoples' expertise without attribution. "all airspeed and no altitude" is how a friend of mine might describe it. I saw the same thing up here with kayaking. These folks moved in from Atlanta and started paddling the rivers. Asking advice, help getting out of the rocks, etc... The very next summer, they showed up with a van with a "White Water School" logo, just full of city folk. I watched them the next few weeks standing on rocks imperiously pointing which path to take down the rapids. The didn't come back the summer after and I never asked what happened. When I was a grad student, I hired on to a new landscape company. (The owner mowed his on grass growing up and went to a week long landscape school.) I left him after two weeks... Funny thing about this place iforgeiron, it does not cost us anything, but we all profit. Thanks Glen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajajoaquin Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 ... I started to reply to the thread but tend to get tired of trying to tell kids things like making a sword isn't the way to learn blacksmithing ... Yep. Sounded a lot like the Anvilfire GenX Sword Advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 Yes this site does cost something, and I'm not talking about hosting fees! It costs *time*; which is pretty much all we are given on this earth and there is no way to get more of it if you squander it. Anytime someone takes the time to write a good answer to a question they have spent some of their limited time on other people's behalf. We should all respect this and not try to waste any of what they have been willing to give. A good step in this direction is to make sure if you ask a question it's complete; it's very discouraging to write out a long answer only to have the original poster reply "I'm not interested in that stuff only in this other stuff!" Well why didn't you say so in the first place! Another is to realize that this is the world wide web and by it's nature a lot of smithing stuff is expensive or hard to ship; so if you are asking about where to get something, post where you are at! (general location, be safe out there! eg: central NM, USA) Many of us hammer steel better than a keyboard and typing out how to find our favorite place to get lefthanded schmiedwurst---extra garlic! only to be told "But I'm on a different continent!" makes us feel like we wasted our efforts on you. Another thing to be aware of is that some of the folks here have been smithing for longer than a lot of the others have been alive. (and most are not as loud and obnoxious like me and a couple of others we could mention...). If you are fairly new to the craft you will go much farther trying to fit in than trying to count coup on others. If you think you have run across something *new*; tell us! But perhaps word it as a question rather than try to push it into people's faces. (one guild show I met a fairly young maker who was all excited about building a knife with a gun barrel down the center ridge and about how he was going to be the first to do so---he wasn't so happy to learn that it had been done in the renaissance---centuries ago (cf "A Wheellock Dagger from the Court of the Medici, Arms and Armor Annual, Vol I) Finally; don't take things too personally; a lot of us like the hurley burley give/take of the forum set up and are quite willing to argue either side of a question or to be much more forceful stating a position than we would face to face---(I don't like RR spike knives---I should get a shirt for Quad-State that says that!) Remember too that some folks have a turbo charged sense of whimsy and can be overbearing at times and completely silly at others. If you read something that you don't like feel free to avoid that thread in the future---or post a reasoned rebuttal and be prepared to read a rebuttal to your rebuttal. You may note that a lot of such discussions finally come to a consensus on a topic and a lot of times it's "different strokes for different folks". Thomas blaming it all on being unusually caffeinated this afternoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 I saw the same thing up here with kayaking. These folks moved in from Atlanta and started paddling the rivers. Asking advice, help getting out of the rocks, etc... The very next summer, they showed up with a van with a "White Water School" logo, just full of city folk. I watched them the next few weeks standing on rocks imperiously pointing which path to take down the rapids. The didn't come back the summer after and I never asked what happened. When I was a grad student, I hired on to a new landscape company. (The owner mowed his on grass growing up and went to a week long landscape school.) I left him after two weeks... Funny thing about this place iforgeiron, it does not cost us anything, but we all profit. Thanks Glen! Your kayak school story reminds me of a similar incident here about 20 years ago. The Susitna river, up north of Anchorage a ways passes through a narrow deep spot called The Devil's Canyon which is famous for destroying most any kind of boat put into it. In fact the Army's attempt running specially designed and built power boats up it is covered in "Wager with The Wind" about the legendary Alaskan Bush Pilot Don Sheldon. So one summer day a fellow and his family show up from Washington with a river boat and start talking about how they're going to show us what a REAL river boat can do, it had 350HP! He got all kinds of publicity up to and including convincing a TV news crew to ride with him on the run. The TV news carried the story pretty much live and interviews they did with folk living in Talkeetna the departure point finally convinced the news crew to rent a helicopter instead. Folk who knew the river and Devil's Canyon were treating them like they were already dead just didn't know it. So, the day the out of staters "showed" us what a REAL river boat would do on a little ol Alaskan river, the run was covered by the new3s crew but from the helicopter. The REAL river boat didn't even make it into the mouth of the Devil's Canyon. Facing a water fall about 40' high the pilot cut the throttle instead of either spinning and leaving or jamming on up it. When he chopped the throttle the stern sucked down as power boats will and the suck hole below the falls sucked the boat under almost instantly. Fortunately the helicopter pilot dropped the news crew on the bank and managed to fish everybody out of the river before it killed them. I don't think anyone here's ever heard another word from him about REAL river boats. However, the Devil's Canyon was conquered by a river boat piloted by Steve (I think) Mahay a few years ago. It was a specially designed and built river boat pushed by two engines and 1,200HP. It's hull was 1/2" armor aluminum plate on the bottom and sides and 3/8" armor al above the gunnels, deck and interior. I don't recall for sure but I think that one run was the only run that boat ever made except for a couple shake downs before the Canyon. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecelticforge Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 He may be cranky at times but he seems to know his stuff, I think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 23, 2010 Author Share Posted July 23, 2010 (and most are not as loud and obnoxious like me and a couple of others we could mention...) Hey! I resent that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 I like this thread... I always get a kick out of people... It seems to me that people who want to tell you how much they know, Almost never understand how limited there understanding is... and people who truly are "humble" typically not only know a great deal worth knowing but are willing to openly share the knowledge... I am kind of an opinionated fellow, I often will stand true to my feelings and beliefs well after its been clearly shown I am flat out wrong... I am sometimes boastful and sometimes a braggart... But I still feel like I know my place, and my place is not above anyone... I am guilty of judging people... I am intolerant of stupidity and I stick my foot in my mouth often... But I know how to say Im sorry, and your right.. and can you forgive me.... Anyway I said earlier in this thread that I am a novice, I believe that... I have been making a living at it for about 7 years now and been around a metal shop in some form for about 20 years.. I was told early on by a blacksmith that it took 10 years to gain a "basic" understanding... When I heard that I didn't appreciate how much truth lie in those words.. Its one of the reasons I quit my "real" job and starting working metal full time... I realized I would never become the "iron master" i aspired to be unless I devoted all of my time to the pursuit... Really im not sure that after ten years I'll feel comfortable stating I have that "basic" understanding... It seems to me the more I learn the more I understand how little I know.... I still have dumbstruck epiphany moments all the time which is one of the things that keeps me motivated and interested... I dont know what the point is... So I'll leave it at that Anyway I sure have fun with everyone here, The world would be a boring place if we all felt the same way and liked the same things... Im glad all you guys are screwy and opinionated.... Just like me ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 Nicely said Mr Monster :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 I am kind of an opinionated fellow, I often will stand true to my feelings and beliefs Anyway I sure have fun with everyone here, The world would be a boring place if we all felt the same way and liked the same things... Im glad all you guys are screwy and opinionated.... Just like me Now Larry,you`re not gonna go and get soft on us are ya?There`s still a lot of low speed/high drag individuals out there we need to whip into shape now! We`ll maybe think about a group hug after we kick some butt. Take a few deep breaths,pound some iron and it`ll pass. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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