junker Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 the other day i was try ing to forge a tomohawk out of a ball peen hammer. i had the eye widened with the drift i had to make just before the tomowak, but when i went to work of the hammer side (as opposed to the ball peen) it started to chip off even at yellow to just under burning temps, then after about 4 heats it just crumbled under my hammer. does anyone have any idea what could have happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 the other day i was try ing to forge a tomohawk out of a ball peen hammer. i had the eye widened with the drift i had to make just before the tomowak, but when i went to work of the hammer side (as opposed to the ball peen) it started to chip off even at yellow to just under burning temps, then after about 4 heats it just crumbled under my hammer. does anyone have any idea what could have happened? Sounds like it was a material other than "mild steel" I have worked tool steels that crumble when at worked high temps... Basically looks like sticky sand when it falls apart... I am sure someone knows what it is in the steel that causes it to be less plastic at temp than what we are used to... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junker Posted July 4, 2010 Author Share Posted July 4, 2010 there is a small chance that the hammer was wrought iron, all i know is that it was really old, but like i said a very small chance, i would test it somehow if i could but it is nearely completely destroyed, even the steel farther back form where i was working crumbled, i might be able to find a piece of 2 if someone knows a test i could run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 there is a small chance that the hammer was wrought iron, all i know is that it was really old, but like i said a very small chance, i would test it somehow if i could but it is nearely completely destroyed, even the steel farther back form where i was working crumbled, i might be able to find a piece of 2 if someone knows a test i could run Cast iron completely crumbles.... I have never heard of a cast iron ball peen but have a couple of sledge hammers... Sounds more like cast than wrought... wrought would fracture into strings, not sand-ish bits... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junker Posted July 4, 2010 Author Share Posted July 4, 2010 it's not really sandish but more like if u tore it off into little pieces Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Were there any manufacturer's marks on it to ID the maker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Was probably an old high quality fairly high carbon hammer. Sounds like too hot to me. Pretty much exactly the way high carbon acts at too high a heat and from your description.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edge9001 Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Cast iron completely crumbles.... I have never heard of a cast iron ball peen but have a couple of sledge hammers... Sounds more like cast than wrought... wrought would fracture into strings, not sand-ish bits... My first attempt at a ballpein hammer hawk, had the same results. only mine the hammer head broke off and fell into a sand like consistancy. turns out it was a cast iron hammer. some very cheap hammers same as ASO's are meant to make money, but not really concerned about quality. I've seen several cheap junk store hammers mostly ballpein hammers that are made of cast iron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecelticforge Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 I have found that many tool steels with Si in them will crumble when heated much past bright red. Just like wet chalk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 As Grant said it was probably an older HCS tool. I`ve had the same type of thing happen with old tools that are marked "cast steel". They seem to fracture and come apart from the wrought iron backing. They can be heated and bent or lightly reformed but some of them just come apart if you try to heavily rework them. I tell folks who want things like "cast steel" caulking irons reforged that they are better off if they have me grind them to shape rather than forge them.If they insist then I tell them it`s on them and all bets are off. They usually just have me make a new one from modern tool steel and keep the history on the shelf,always the safe bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 Either old style cast steel or newer Chinese cast steel. Both become brittle at higher temperatures do to bad things happening between the grains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 In the UK the hammers issued for breaking up coal on steam trains were usually cast iron so that it was pointless to nick them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 In the UK the hammers issued for breaking up coal on steam trains were usually cast iron so that it was pointless to nick them. Using a very low grade hammer material as a theft preventive...good idea. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 In the UK the hammers issued for breaking up coal on steam trains were usually cast iron so that it was pointless to nick them. Unless you wanted a doorstop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 The one my uncle swiped had 'coal' cast into the side, so that's what he used it for! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 The one my uncle swiped had 'coal' cast into the side, so that's what he used it for! What did it burn like ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 Hot short can also indicate a high Vanadium and or Manganese content alloy. I've reworked more than one ball pein and found they're happier if worked at a mid-high orange and don't seem to HATE low orange-high red for the fine work. Heck, at the Art on Fire event a couple weeks ago I discovered the 304 Stainless I use to make pig tail roasting forks is hot short and not real hot either. Even at mid orange it'd go to grains in 2-3 heats. Before my accident this stuff worked nicely at lower temps, from low orange to low red and even let me beat it in the black a little. Feeling these things out and adapting is an important part of the craft. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rapula Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 I am sure someone out there can tell me what type of steel those Cummins piston pins are made of. Are they 1045, can they be water hardened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 I am sure someone out there can tell me what type of steel those Cummins piston pins are made of. Are they 1045, can they be water hardened? I'm not sure, but I heard Jay Sharp used to make rounding hammers out of them, and you, Bernard, are not the first one to tell me that. Jay told me himself, but I'm not sure how he heat treated them. Either Jay, himself, or Shayne Carter could probably tell you exactly what they did. I'm really glad to see you on IFORGEIRON rapula! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rapula Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 I'm not sure, but I heard Jay Sharp used to make rounding hammers out of them, and you, Bernard, are not the first one to tell me that. Jay told me himself, but I'm not sure how he heat treated them. Either Jay, himself, or Shane Carter could probably tell you exactly what they did. I'm really glad to see you on IFORGEIRON rapula! Thanks Brian, I should get in touch with Jay's son, you know what his name is? I may be able to contact him via email, since that is about the best way to contact people from Colombia... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Thanks Brian, I should get in touch with Jay's son, you know what his name is? I may be able to contact him via email, since that is about the best way to contact people from Colombia... rapula, I don't know Jay's son's name, but I'll send you Jay's number in a personal message. Did you know that Jay Sharpe, himself, told me and Ed that you were a good smith? I don't know if Ed told you, but coming from Jay Sharpe, that is saying something. Jay will rarely give a good compliment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rapula Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 rapula, I don't know Jay's son's name, but I'll send you Jay's number in a personal message. Did you know that Jay Sharpe, himself, told me and Ed that you were a good smith? I don't know if Ed told you, but coming from Jay Sharpe, that is saying something. Jay will rarely give a good compliment. I used to strike for him sometimes on his demos, back in 1978. I always enjoyed being around him. Have not seen him in over 30 years, last year I paid him a visit in Las Vegas. It was good to see him again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Clad Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 The same thing happened to me on some 3/8 round mild steel once when I was forging some chain. Most of the rod welded up fine but towards the center of the rod it would just crumble like sand when heated. I just figured some bad stuff was in the pot when the rod was manufactured, probably is China. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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