Shop Floors

[Randy]

When I built my first smithy back in '74 I did a lot of research by seeing old shops and talking to old smiths about what they used for their floors. I saw a lot of wooden floors that were all warped with nail heads sticking up and spent the day tripping around the shop. That's what a lot of them had. One smith had a wagon shop with a dirt floor that his great-grandfather put in, but not just dirt. Here is the process they used: rake up the dirt floor to make it loose and level: add a fine (no lumps) wood ash from a wood furnace or wood stove: rake that into the dirt: (that prevents mud puddles when it gets wet): then use a watering can and sprinkle the floor with water: after it soaks in good use a flat plate with a long handle welded to it and tamp down the whole floor. I ended up trying this in my first shop and it was very comfortable, my feet didn't get cold and I really liked it. There is mainenance to it though. Every several weeks it starts to dry out and that's when you get dust, or you get paths from where you walk to and from the most, so you just rake it level again, water, wait for it to soak in and tamp it down.

I've worked in shops with gravel floors and it was awkward. Hard to find a comfortable place to stand and hand tools disappeared. Plus it was hard to keep anvils and the like sitting level. The gravel dust would work better if wetted and tamped down. I've also worked on brick floors and they tend to move after a time and corners stick up and you're back to tripping again. Also they can get uneven and that's uncomfortable to stand on, too.

All of my shops have had concrete floors since that first shop because it was already in the buildings. My current smithy has a concrete floor and my feet get cold quick and I feel it by the end of the day in my legs. The best shop I had with a concrete floor was built like a bank barn where the back was built into the side of a hill. This put the floor several feet into the ground and it kept a constant temperature of 55 degrees. If I could build a new shop I'd work that into the plan some how. I could work in that shop all day all year around and it was always comfortable temperature wise and comfort wise.

[SGropp]

Another big plus to having a dirt floor in a blacksmith shop is that they are definitely quieter. Sound waves tend to bounce back from hard smooth surfaces.

Blacksmith shops by nature are noisy places, so anything that you can do to lessen the reverberation of sound waves will help keep it a more comfortable workplace . High peaked ceilings with insulation , walls with mass and/or insulation and rough textured wood paneling can help muffle sound inside and out.

Don't underestimate the damage and stress that can come from long term exposure to noise.

[Frosty]

I have a 6" concrete slab in my 1,200 sq/ft shop. It has a couple features I don't think you can put in a compacted soil floor like my vertical 2"ID sq receiver tubes on a 4' grid. The ends are set to be flush with the floor's surface, the caps that cover them are flush with the floor that is. What they do is make my entire floor a large jig table, think of a spread out acorn platten. I can simply drop pieces of 2" od sq tubing into them to make whatever size or shape whatever I need, be it a 12' tall support and scaffold for a tall project or a really imobile table that knocks down to get out of the way. Another feature of my receiver tube floor grid is it's grounded through the rebar so I can weld with only the stinger cable under foot. Lastly but FAR from leastly All the receivers are connected under the slab via 3" ABS to a pretty darned strong blower. Ayup, it's a down draft exhaust system. My, yet to be built, cutting/welding table will be bar grate over a sheet steel plenum chamber on 2" sq legs that'll drop into receivers. That way when I'm cutting or welding all the smoke is drawn down into the floor rather than wafting about the shop. Besides not having to breath smoke and crud I do NOT have to change ALL the air in the shop 3-4 times to get rid of a little smoke. Think much smaller heating bill in winter.

Personally I like concrete floors and have never had foot, knee, hip or back troubles from working on them. I have White's logger/smoke jumper boots that are custom made to fit my flipper like feet. They're expensive, well over $350, last time I checked but I bought mine a good 25 years ago when they were about $250 a pair. Anyway, ZERO foot injuries or related skeletal problems wearing White's Boots.

A more ecconomical option are Z-Coils, I call em coyote killers because they have a spring under the heals that take all the impace shock out of walking. A pair of Z-coils, now with covers for the springs so they're not the trip hazard they used to be run around $200 give or take. I have a pair of them too and they work just fine.

Pavers are fine if you set a proper base so they don't shift much. You don't even have to buy them, the local Home Depot carries plastic paver molds in a number of different shapes and sizes. Some for stepping stones or hex pavers for lawn walks and a number of different shaped bricks for interlocking pavers like are being discussed here.

Coloring concrete is simply a matter of adding a little pigment when you mix it. If you don't care about color you might be able to talk a cement truck driver into filling your molds when he's cleaning out his drum after a pour. Get several molds and bring a sheet of plywood to set them on if you go this route. Passing him/er a $20 is good PR too and may pay BIG dividends in the future.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot this. If you want to use a concrete stabilized soil floor check with the local state highways soil's lab and get a little info on local conditions. If you're going to buy crush gravel make SURE it has about 1pt in 3 sand or the concrete won't stick it all together nearly as well.

Yeah, I spent several years working in the State Materials lab here, then another 20 as a foundations driller and finished up with highways maint. you'd be amazed at what you pick up doing that kind of thing.

Just be nice when you talk to the soils lab guys, keep the state employee jokes under your hat I can guarantee s/he's heard em all and may decide to be less than cooperative on a freeby favor deal.

They may be busy too so if they recommend you buy the ASTM book relating to concrete stabilized soils I'd do just that. Just remember to ask for which book to get, there're lots of them.

Frosty the Lucky

[arftist]

Are you saying a $250 pair of boots has lasted you for 25 years?

[thingmaker3]

I have White's logger/smoke jumper boots that are custom made to fit my flipper like feet. They're expensive, well over $350, last time I checked but I bought mine a good 25 years ago when they were about $250 a pair. Anyway, ZERO foot injuries or related skeletal problems wearing White's Boots.

The Danners I gave $225 for only lasted five years. I'm thinking "well over $350" for a quarter century might be a darn good investment... Two pair woul last longer than me.

[HWHII]

Thank you for all your ideas! The stone dust has my interest. I will look into to it locally and see what I can find out.

[dkunkler]

I have a 6" concrete slab in my 1,200 sq/ft shop. It has a couple features I don't think you can put in a compacted soil floor like my vertical 2"ID sq receiver tubes on a 4' grid. The ends are set to be flush with the floor's surface, the caps that cover them are flush with the floor that is. What they do is make my entire floor a large jig table, think of a spread out acorn platten. I can simply drop pieces of 2" od sq tubing into them to make whatever size or shape whatever I need, be it a 12' tall support and scaffold for a tall project or a really imobile table that knocks down to get out of the way. Another feature of my receiver tube floor grid is it's grounded through the rebar so I can weld with only the stinger cable under foot. Lastly but FAR from leastly All the receivers are connected under the slab via 3" ABS to a pretty darned strong blower.

I may be building a new shop in a couple of years and I really like this floor system you devised. Could you please
explain in more detail with sketches or pictures? Also is there anything you might do different or improve? Thanks.

[Jymm Hoffman]

I have had some experience with all the floors mentioned. There is no perfect floor to meet every demand as there is no perfect tool to do everything, perfectly.

I keep coming back to concrete and is my choice. Much easier to keep clean and keep dust down, and if poured and finished correctly, never changes unless something stupid is done to it of course. Most of the problems were mentioned with the exception of pavers set on dirt or sand eventually move and can cause tripping.

If you have back and leg problems on one surface, I would venture to say you will have those problems to some extent with any floor, jus maybe a little less. My solution that we discussed last year is clogs. The arch support is superior to any insert I have used in my expensive work shoes and boots. If I am going to be standing all day, which is what I normally do as a full time smith, I want to wear either my wooden shoes or wooden sole clogs. Makes a huge difference on my legs and back. That's all I got to say about that.

[divermike]

I don't know if what we have is the same stone dust as what the others were discussing, I live in a dolomite region, and we have a dolomite plant nearby, the crush runs are large, medium, small and dust. I went with the medium, and then covered it with the fine crush, the dust is a deterrent to insects, many of whom breathe through little holes in their sides, called alveoli, or some such. We get the fine crush for 5 bucks a truckload, you shovel, and so I get lots and lots, for little bucks. It really is a soft surface to walk on, and easy to manage, absolutely comfortable to stand long periods on. I highly recommend it, if it starts to settle, just add a bit more!!

[petere76]

Frosty,

Great idea on the 2 in tubing grid. I have seen similar set ups in auto shops for pulling bent frames into alignment, very handy.

Good to see you on the mend.

Peter

[Sukellos]

I live up in Mesa. My shop is just a ramada held up on 4x4 posts. I leveled the floor and ran 1x4s around the inside of the posts. I filled this "box" up to the top with fine clean sand. It's easy on the feet and drains well in the monsoon. I often arc weld there so my floor acts as a sort of "clamp" for longer pieces to hold them in place until I tack them. Dropped hot iron is no problem and I can normalize pieces simply by shoving them into the floor to cool. Dropped small parts can be a problem. A small kitty box sifter can help with that. Hain't perfect but it works for me. My shop, though, is only about 10'x12'.

[Frosty]

Are you saying a $250 pair of boots has lasted you for 25 years?

Yes, at least that old. I had my first pair rebuilt after about 20 years and ordered a second pair. The rebuild was about $200 at the time and the new pair was $300. Both are still going strong.

If you buy a pair of Whites be careful breaking them in or they'll REALLY HURT you. The best technique I found was to soak them in water and wear them dry. No pain outside of squishy socks for a number of hours. Done before water proofing of course.

The logger smoke jumpers are designed to protect your feet when parachuting into a forest AND be plenty strong enough to wear calks or have them made with calked soles (called Corks). You need to speciy when ordering if you want "corks" Calked boots but you can NOT beat the super traction of a whole bunch of 9/16" +/- carbide tipped steel spikes sticking out of your boot soles while in the woods. Stepping on a steel deck in corks will make you think ice is really grippy.


Frosty the Lucky.

[Frosty]

I may be building a new shop in a couple of years and I really like this floor system you devised. Could you please
explain in more detail with sketches or pictures? Also is there anything you might do different or improve? Thanks.

It's pretty straight forward though a lot of piddly detail hand work. I used ABS pipe for the under floor air channels and I would definitely use steel if I could've afforded it. connecting the 2" receivers to the ABS was a pain and really limited how rough I could be compacting the base before pouring the concrete.

I still haven't figured out wuite how to post a pic as the site tries to upload the whole folder and that exceeds the file size limit by a LOT. I'll try again though. Stand by. . . Okay, see if that works, it says file uploaded but . . . I just hope my entire shop folder isn't now attached to this post.

Uh NOPE no pic unless it shows up later.

go ahead and shoot me a message on the side with an E-mail address and I'll sent pics, etc.

Frosty the Lucky.

[Frosty]

Frosty,

Great idea on the 2 in tubing grid. I have seen similar set ups in auto shops for pulling bent frames into alignment, very handy.

Good to see you on the mend.

Peter

Thanks Peter, it's good to be on the return.

I don't think I'll have any problem using my receivers to anchor hydraulic cylinders for bending and straightening stuff. Heck, I already did that on one of the corner posts for the shop. It'd gotten bent/twisted and I didn't spot it before signing off on the kit. Oh well, a couple 2" steel pins and some hydraulics and it's straight as you please.

Frosty the Lucky.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Frosty, my Mom who was a leather worker taught me to use alcohol to when breaking in boots, or forming some leather. It dampens it enough to make it pliable, but dries much faster than water does.

[billp]

I got a question about dirt floors and thought I would ask it here. I just got through putting up a metal building on a block foundation leaving the center in dirt, this will be my new smithy. It's my plan to put down 1 foot square block with cement filler to hold it all together for the floor.

But the problem now is we have had snow and ice with below freezing temps for a number of days. The snow and ice has started melting off and temps back into the high 40's but I can't get the floor to dry up it's like a sea of stick clinging mud. I tried heat, even blowers but no luck have had to put down planks so I could do my wiring.

Is there anything I can do to help dry the floor up so I can start leveling out and putting down? If so please let me know, Thanks
BillP

[Dr Dean]

Unfortunatly you're in a tough situation. You need warm weather and drainage. I hope the floor is above the surrounding grade or you will continue to have problems, I've seen it many times in machine sheds. Is the soil heavy (clay) or is it a light loam that drains well? If it's clay you may have to work in alot of sand to gain drainage and possibly add drain tile below grade. The best thing to do would be to remove 1 foot of soil and backfill with crusher run rock (3/4 minus) compact with a plate compactor to gain a good base that won't shift or settle. Chrushed rock will pack and not willingly move unlike pea gravel that is rounded and will never be a good base.

[Bully]

I have dirt floor which worked ok until I thought I would pour a few bags of breeze (coke dust) onto it just to keep things 'nice' and colour scheme uniformish. Big mistake dog is always black, when it rains and I leave the forge black fooprints everywhere, dust is worst now than before. Have tried wetting it a few times and letting it dry before I step on it in the hope it would harden and does for about 10 minutes. Oh well one thing you learn from blacksmithing is you live and learn. Cheers Bully

[Mainely,Bob]

To build on what Dr Dean said,I`d do what we did for our basement which we had to blast out of granite ledge.
Below the slab(which would be your dirt floor)we put down the crushed and compacted stone as Dr D suggests.In that stone we put PVC drain pipe(wrapped in landscape cloth) to collect the water run off from under the floor and lead it to a sump.That sump is also a collection point for the water from the roof gutters and perimeter drains.
The sump is piped to drain into a swale further down hill away from the house.
I had over a foot of standing water in the blasted foundation hole prior to concrete work and you could see the water running down the stone and off remaining roots.Once the house was complete(with walk out basement)I monitored the sump and found that the only time water came from beneath the slab was after extended torrential rains combined with the melt during mud season here.The perimeter drains were just being overwhelmed but the PVC below the slab showed only a trickle of water.
The only side of the foundation that is not at least partially covered by grade is one 32ft side of our 32X40 house the remaining 3 sides range from 4 to 7 foot below grade.The sump drain runs under the drive from the exposed face of the house.
I learned that it`s best to keep the water from getting under the floor but if that`s not possible then the next best approach is to give the water a clear path of lesser resistance it can take rather than percolate up thru the floor itself.
BTW-If your shop is to remain unheated and you seal the floor(with plastic underlay or other means) to keep water from rising thru it then prepare for what we in New England know as "frost heaves",something that makes it very difficult to open the chicken coop door. :(

[ThomasPowers]

Do you deal with the water outside well so it doesn't seep into the building? Gutters, french drains, slope of the areas around the foundation?

If no new water is being introduced to your floor it will dry after a while and then can be worked on. May take a bit if you are starting out saturated and the drying potential is low. Good air flow across it helps.

Since you must be here in NM like me and so have the same conditions; only a couple of one digit humidity days with wind and sun should dry that puppy up!

[billp]

I have no problem with drainage and the dirt is good top soil type dirt. Before I put the building up I had no problems. I'm just not sure if the metal building is keeping humidity in or maybe it just needs to get hot for a few days to dry up some. Maybe I'm just being inpatient as I have never tried to build in this cold of weather before as it is a bit below normal for us here in Tennessee. Just though someone may have a trick or two up there sleeve to help me dry this up a bit faster. Because I can't work till I get it finished and so far it's been delay after delay and driving me nuts. Any how again any advice will be helpful and thanks to all who have put in so far.
BillP