Scot sword ban

[Reid Neilsen]

When is the last time Scotsmen went on a killing rampage with swords? 1745? Look what happened there! That ended badly.

I know what it is, somebody in parliament watched Braveheart with Mel Gibson and said "Holy mole! We dont want them doing that again!"

[Kasaron]

A fool takes something from someone and says "You may not!"
The one it's taken from will make another, and be angry at the idiot who took it from him.
A smart man gives someone the thing he should not use, and makes him afraid to use it.
He then teaches those who are not afraid, how to use it responsibly.

Or so they say.

[beatamax]

I seem to remember seeing a picture of a U.S. bumper sticker years ago that said "if you outlaw guns only outlaws will carry guns" pretty much thats whats happened in the uk. I cant remember the last time I saw someone walking down the street with a sword - Oh thats right I haven't. I am not scared by guns and knives what scares me is the knee jerk reactions that the police and goverment keep making. The problem is not with any weapon or tool (there's probably as many stabbings carried out using screwdivers as there are with knives) its the fact that people have so badly lost the plot in society that an almost instant resort to violence is considered normal.

[Nerevar]

The world has been filled with ninnies that would send our children to school in bubble wrap, fill them with fear, grind in the happily ever after disney movies, prohibit them from participating in wrestling even, and then cry foul when their sweet babes are being mugged and they have no idea how to help themselves. Personaly if a law says i cant do somthing for some reason and i dont feel it has validity i dont pay it any mind, its just that simple. One day soon they will wish they had their "Weapons" look around the world is only getting worse! How many countries are in a recession of some sort, how many countries are experiancing war, natural disasters? Internal dissent? religious prosicution? While they are content to eat a mcdonalds or flip to the latest episode on lost...They will want their "Weapons" to protect themselves agaist their very own neighbors, And I Have Mine. Call me crazy.

[Glenn]

This thread is almost 4 years old, originally Posted 14 August 2006 - 06:03 PM.

Personaly if a law says i cant do somthing for some reason and i dont feel it has validity i dont pay it any mind, its just that simple.

You sure you want to post this on a public forum?

Let us keep thing blacksmithing and metalworking related please.

[Bentiron1946]

OK, If they put a ban on swords in the USA how many folk would be out of business? Would this fall under the Second Amedment of the Constitution's definition of "arms" or not? Would swords be regulated by ATF or would they be like replica black powder muzzle loading guns, they're are not considered to be real guns and were not held to be "firearms", unless you happened to use them to rob or injure someone then they are considered "firearms". Would it be the same for swords if they were replicas of historic arms? Just wondering if it would greatly impact your blacksmithing income? :blink:

[Arpspasm]

I sent a sword over for a customer in Scotland a couple of months ago and although he spent a while organising the correct permits and such there wasnt too big a problem for him (Though it did get held up by customs for a bit.) I think if any Scottish collector doesn't mind a bit of hoop jumping they shouldn't have too much of a problem legitimately aquiring a sword.

[Swamptroll]

I don't own any weapons. What I have are tools to do specific jobs. Thats all they are is tools plain and simple, some are just more efficient than others

[Panzom]

WOW! I remember back in the 90's when all these countries started banning guns, and people asked what's next banning of knifes and swords. Everyone just laughed. The Romans also banned swords, for the safety of their citizens of course. A cliché comes to mind but it fits so well so I must say it. “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

[Bentiron1946]

When I was really into the gun thing back in the sixties and seventies I was doing some research on gun control and when guns were going from matchlock to wheel lock many city states put a ban on them as being assassin weapons because you couldn't smell the burning match and therefore gave the person carrying them an unfair advantage. Those in power are always trying to control those not in power one way or another. Even worse perhaps is the thought that you as an individual don't have enough sense to come in out of the rain, nanny government at it's worst. <_<

[Haasum]

The problem with banning any "weapon" to try to stop crime is very basic. Here is it; when you ban a weapon to stop crime, the only people you stop from having the weapon are the law abiding citizens who wouldn't commit crime with it in the first place.

Criminals get illegal weapons, they get them all the time the fact that they are illegal doesn't stop them, it doesn't deter them, it means nothing to them. All you're doing, is in fact making it EASIER for the criminals to commit crime!

Put yourself in the shoes of a criminal, which house would you rather rob? The house where the guy MIGHT have a gun/weapon and be able to defend himself from you, possibly injuring or killing you in the process? Or the house that you can feel fairly confident the people have no gun/weapons to threaten you with? I sure as *** would go for the second house in that situation, not that I am a criminal, and I am sure anyone with common sense would say they same thing.

Gun/weapon control laws don't stop criminals they just make criminal behavior safer because there is less of a chance of a law abiding citizen in the process of being victimized to actually be able to defend themselves.

I also agree with what others have said, you can't ban everything that can be used as a weapon. If people have enough time and are ingenious enough they can literally make a weapon out of just about anything. You have to look no further than people in jail. They have all the time they want to scheme and think about ways to make weapons and then actually making them. Anything can be turned into a weapon in the right hands, it is not the object that causes it to happen, it is the mind of the person using it. You wont stop crime by trying to ban a weapon.

I wont even go into the people who have been training for years in martial arts and could tear your average person apart in seconds.

If criminals were going to be deterred from doing something because it is against the law, they wouldn't be criminals in the first place!

[Akad]

Yeah, we'll ban swords, guns, and anything that could possibly make an obvious weapon... but yet millions die every year from smoking cigarettes...

In a city close to where I live, a pregnant lady was mugged and hit on the head with a hammer. A kid was held down by teens and stabbed with a screwdriver.

It has been said a hundred times on this thread, but I'll say it again: what makes an object a weapon is human intent. The objects we use as weapons do not have a conscience. They cannot make the decision to take a life or not. But as soon as a human being decides to use one of these objects against another, the poor, defenseless weapon is left to fend for its own.

Let's ban humans instead!

[forgemaster]

So what happens with the Scots and their sword dance, does it now become a wooden stick dance or some such? Also what happens with the scotty carrying a dirk in his sock? Maybe they could just carry a teaspoon in their sock now. A blunt teaspoon at that!

Phil

[Mills]

an interesting read is the research put out by Gary Kleck,
From www.guncite.com
Gary Kleck's voluntary disclosure statement that appears in "Targeting Guns":

"The author is a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, Amnesty International USA, Independent Action, Democrats 2000, and Common Cause, among other politically liberal organizations He is a lifelong registered Democrat, as well as a contributor to liberal Democratic candidates. He is not now, nor has he ever been, a member of, or contributor to, the National Rifle Association, Handgun Control, Inc. nor any other advocacy organization, nor has he received funding for research from any such organization. "

With that as his background he started researching gun ownership in the US in the 70's and has come to the conclusion that guns aren't the problem, people are. a man of integrity who followed the research where it led. He also some very pointed remarks in his work about political points being made with no justification for the premise. I believe that much of what he has concluded for the US could apply or at least guide the Scottish discussion. In particular, Kleck refers to the culture of firearms and hunting in the US as reasons why increased ownership doesn't correlate to increased violence. This would be anecdotal for the Scot sword ban, but a good place to start.

Much of the argument for weapons is extremely simplistic and centered on the dynamics of the US. The same arguments aren't very sound outside of this culture. Somalia comes to mind. weapons were easy to come by but there was no real government or respect for the same. Rwanda had a complete break down in the western idea of governance. One side thought they were completely justified. So did the Nazi's. And they were VERY law abiding.

I personally choose to read and study policy and if it yields a desirable result for the population as a whole then it should be implemented. Some times that may mean gun bans, or martial law, or grounding all planes.. etc. It is called leadership. and there should always be opposing voices to maintain the balance. The opposition would ideally be based in logic and careful study as well.

Yeah, like that is reality. The best we can do as a republic is to expect sound leadership from our leaders and keep the stridency down to a manageable level. I am not sure what the Scots can do but I suspect something similar.

[sheridan]

I like weapons. Weapons have been very, very good to me.

I am a retired US Army officer.

I have 25 years in law enforcement and the judiciary.

The Government can have all my weapons: firearms of various kinds and vintages; blades of many sizes and shapes; axes, 'hawks, clubs, hammers and other items both offensive and defensive in nature.

After they pry my cold, dead fingers from them.

Love it. Law abiding, but firm. For me, they will have to take my hands too.

[Lein]

The English did this to Scotland before, it didn't work then. What will be next the places that teach Martial Arts? the contents of a tool box? the things you keep in the kitchen? Beer bottles? Trash cans? Bricks? Shoes? the rocks and sticks.... When will the law abiding citizens of the world stop being sheep and refuse to be bullied by there governments?

“A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands” ~ Seneca (Roman philosopher, mid-1st century AD)

[Bentiron1946]

The US Supreme Court has recently ruled that it is a basic constitutional right of an individual to own and have a firearm in their home for self defense. I'm thankful that the Court decided in favor of that individual right however it puts a great responsibility on the individual to act in a responsible manner. This does not give the individual the right to kill on sight anyone they suspect is going to harm them. One must exercise extreme self control or become charged with a crime themselves. When you compare Switzerland with Somalia you can see the difference between a country where the rule of law is observed and the rule of law ignored and what a difference. I read an article where England was banning the pint glass in pubs to prevent injury to patrons for several reasons, one it's use as a weapon in fights, the pint glass going the way of the sword. Now how sad is that? :blink:

[shortdog]

The US Supreme Court has recently ruled that it is a basic constitutional right of an individual to own and have a firearm in their home for self defense. I'm thankful that the Court decided in favor of that individual right however it puts a great responsibility on the individual to act in a responsible manner. This does not give the individual the right to kill on sight anyone they suspect is going to harm them. One must exercise extreme self control or become charged with a crime themselves. When you compare Switzerland with Somalia you can see the difference between a country where the rule of law is observed and the rule of law ignored and what a difference. I read an article where England was banning the pint glass in pubs to prevent injury to patrons for several reasons, one it's use as a weapon in fights, the pint glass going the way of the sword. Now how sad is that?

Awwwww, man! Not the pint glass! Oh, the humanity! A BS move if I ever heard one. Our beermugs here in the States will do twice the damage of a pint glass based on weight alone, and our govt. isn't doing a thing about it. I nearly got knocked out by the contents of several mugs many times, and where was the government? Tell you what.... They can have my beermug when they pry it from my numb, alcohol paralyzed fingers!

Like everyone else here, I feel that government often makes bad decisions when choosing things to prohibit. You can bet the forces behind Scotland's sword ban are driven by money from somewhere, or nobody'd even be interested. While we all may not make our money in swords, there are smiths who do. I feel for them and the sword afficianados this ban will impact. Too much government can be a bad thing.

[Mainely,Bob]

I never bothered with the glass,if I was that mad at someone I always used the pitcher.
My pappy always said,"use the right tool for the job at hand". ;)

[youngdylan]

Awwwww, man! Not the pint glass! Oh, the humanity! A BS move if I ever heard one. Our beermugs here in the States will do twice the damage of a pint glass based on weight alone, and our govt. isn't doing a thing about it. I nearly got knocked out by the contents of several mugs many times, and where was the government? Tell you what.... They can have my beermug when they pry it from my numb, alcohol paralyzed fingers!

Like everyone else here, I feel that government often makes bad decisions when choosing things to prohibit. You can bet the forces behind Scotland's sword ban are driven by money from somewhere, or nobody'd even be interested. While we all may not make our money in swords, there are smiths who do. I feel for them and the sword afficianados this ban will impact. Too much government can be a bad thing.

Nope, over here in England they're not/ won't ban pint glasses or bottles from pubs, very unlikely they ever will. What they do ban then from are roudy "saturday night special" places or certain types of outdoor events where the "wrong sort" of people end up drinking all day. It's usually the local councils (the PEOPLE) not the government that ban them. Often the establishments themselves voluntarily and senssibly choose to use plastic. D**kheads and alcohol in these places can and regularly do make a less than pleasant combination. Glasses aren't smacked over your head in some hollywood way to knock you out, the usual trick is to pick the glass/botle, smash off the end on a nearby object then grind the broken half they're still holding into their "opponents" face, women are occassionally on either end of the bottle. Maybe your beermugs are a bit sturdier?

[Bentiron1946]

Well we can carry the liberty to carry weapons a little to far the other way, here in my home state I was told that it is now legal to conceal carry a firearm without a permit, even into a bar, I'm not sure that is the wisest of moves when mixed with alcohol. With that in mind who would worry about a glass bottle or pint glass? and you certainly wouldn't have to worry much about the guy with the sword. :blink:

[youngdylan]

Well we can carry the liberty to carry weapons a little to far the other way, here in my home state I was told that it is now legal to conceal carry a firearm without a permit, even into a bar, I'm not sure that is the wisest of moves when mixed with alcohol. With that in mind who would worry about a glass bottle or pint glass? and you certainly wouldn't have to worry much about the guy with the sword.

Guess when I finally get to ride round the states I'll have to be a bit more careful drinking in Arizona. :)

[John McPherson]

"Also what happens with the scotty carrying a dirk in his sock? Maybe they could just carry a teaspoon in their sock now. A blunt teaspoon at that!"

I can tell that you have not been there, Oh, they are so many decades past that point in the UK. Pipers, even those currently serving in official military bands, tattoo a sgian on their calf, or just do without. Showing up in public with a sgian in your sock, much less a dirk on your belt, will get you arrested PDQ.

There, it is under glass, wired securely to the wall, or brought out only in private settings. First time Honored Guests to Highland Games on this side of the pond always are stunned by the amount of sharp and pointy being carried, even by 'gasp' ladies.

"Cowboys" they say, whilst chain smoking in front of the No Smoking sign, ankle deep in straw. Then, they are amazed that having a paragraph of titles after their name does not exempt them from the rules here. Yes, I have spoken sharply to Peers of the Realm, in my duties as Head of Security. It was fun.

[Mainely,Bob]

"Also what happens with the scotty carrying a dirk in his sock? Maybe they could just carry a teaspoon in their sock now. A blunt teaspoon at that!"

I can tell that you have not been there, Oh, they are so many decades past that point in the UK. Pipers, even those currently serving in official military bands, tattoo a sgian on their calf, or just do without. Showing up in public with a sgian in your sock, much less a dirk on your belt, will get you arrested PDQ.

There, it is under glass, wired securely to the wall, or brought out only in private settings. First time Honored Guests to Highland Games on this side of the pond always are stunned by the amount of sharp and pointy being carried, even by 'gasp' ladies.

"Cowboys" they say, whilst chain smoking in front of the No Smoking sign, ankle deep in straw. Then, they are amazed that having a paragraph of titles after their name does not exempt them from the rules here. Yes, I have spoken sharply to Peers of the Realm, in my duties as Head of Security. It was fun.

Nothing better than watching the slow re-awakening of long dormant braincells.

BTW-Those "cowboys" probably never lived more than 5 miles outside a city and are more correctly called "goat ropers" by real cowboys,situational awareness(I love that phrase)is one of the hallmarks of a real cowboy.
The real deal also considered a high quality knife(usually capable of being opened with one hand) a necessary and valued tool to be kept close at hand at all times and it`s various uses became simply an extension of one`s hand.
IME most cowboys and infantrymen will have a knife out,the job at hand done and the knife stowed before they are even aware they have a knife in their hand.Just another tool of the trade,like a pen or a cell phone.

[John McPherson]

You misunderstand me, cowboy was being used as an epithet in this case. We were in North Carolina, and the only cows in sight were shaggy Highland cattle.

I mean that they consider all of us "Colonials" to be cowboys: IE, swaggering rednecks, ruffians, rubes, uncivilized knuckle draggers to be sneered at for even **wanting** to have the right to carry a simple pocketknife, much less a (Horrors!) pistol. They seem to see the Right to Bear Arms as a proof of our being a primitive culture, and not of our independent nature. They have given up even the right to self defense in the home.

Once upon a time, the sun never set on the mighty British Empire. Now, we are on that same slippery slope.