hand- made?

[junker]

can a piece forged wit the aid of a press or power hammer truly be called hand made? or for those who strive for only hand made things, only use a hammer?

[JNewman]

Your right from now on I will only call items that I forge by hitting with my fist or squeezing with my fingers hand made.

[Frosty]

Sure, you betcha.

The machine isn't doing it, it's just lending you more power so you can work larger material.

Iron and steel are plastic when enough energy is applied to it. If you can hit it hard enough it'll flow like water even cold. Unfortunately we don't have enough power in our arms to do much before work hardening causes it to break.

So, we add the power to the iron and steel itself before we hit it in the form of heat energy. Do we consider this form of mechanical advantage cheating?

Using machinery to magnify or even replace our muscles is simply putting moe energy into the material than we can by ourselves. The same thing as putting a handle on a hammer head, mechanical multipliers.

The power hammer is nothing but an inanimate lump of highly refined dirt without a human mind to guide it. When I'm forging something under the power hammer it's MY eye and brain guiding it, MY hands manipulating it. Me not the machine.

Using closed dies to mass produce objects is a different matter. The dies may be hand made but the product isn't. The artistry is still their but at one remove. Same for a CNC machine, there is high art there but it's in the machine itself more so than the product.

Anyway, yes forging under a power hammer is indeed hand forging so long as it's a hand guiding the material being forged.

Of course that's just my opinion others may differ and to them I say. Plllltttt

Frosty

[JNewman]

There you go Frosty saying what I just said, just much more elequently and without the sarcasm.;)

[Frosty]

The sarcasm was there, I'm just practicing subtlty today.

Seriously though it's a good question. A lot of new comers don't know things we take for granted and where to draw the line between "hand" vs. "machine" forged has serious ethical ramifications.

I certainly don't claim to be the final word on the subject and others are welcome to their definition, like what any one person considers "traditional". Being able to articulate the what and why of your given position will help vindicate your marketing.

Seriously, would you tell someone who wanted 1 1/2" sq bar "hand forged" it was impossible or explain how having the cool end of the bar in your hands while a powerhammer did YOUR bidding was indeed hand forging?

Heck, precisely controlling a powerhammer and the iron takes more skill than hand hammering.

Frosty

[double_edge2]

i think....which may not count for much, skill is in the result? if ive said that right...if you cant do it by hammer, you usually cant do it y machine...non die stuf that is.

[Mark Emig]

There was power hammers as early as the 1600's-was it hand made then? I think so. Look at the doors on the Notre-Dame cathedral-when they were made the smith used dies to forge the ends of the large strap hinges-which became a huge to-do in the smithing community back then-now 400 years later we still do the same thing with new vs old processes.
Mark

[junker]

Thanks for the great responses, especially frosty. And you're right, this is more of an ethical question than a practical one... but I think the jist of the responses that I'm getting are this: if there was a human in direct contact with the piece, directly applying his/her skills, no matter the mechanical help applied, the piece should be considered hand- made.

[Francis Trez Cole]

I would thing labor would be the compermize. With many strikers you did not need a power hammer. For my self I am a soiltary blacksmith if I can get a striker for the day that would be great. So with out more power or a second set of hands there is only so much one person can hammer and shape.

[unkle spike]

I don't split hairs when it comes to this. "Traditional" is a misnomer. We all practice a craft called blacksmithing. If you really wanted to get technical, if you light your forge with a lighter versus matches, you are not doing it the "Traditional" way.

Now if you took a 5 axis CNC to make a hot dog fork, "Hand made" would be a bit of a stretch.

[Drewed]

The line of handmade is exactly at what ever level of machine you use. The person that uses just one more machine, or die, or drill, is at the next level and no longer "handmade."

[Alphonse]

The sarcasm was there, I'm just practicing subtlty today.

Seriously though it's a good question. A lot of new comers don't know things we take for granted and where to draw the line between "hand" vs. "machine" forged has serious ethical ramifications.

I certainly don't claim to be the final word on the subject and others are welcome to their definition, like what any one person considers "traditional". Being able to articulate the what and why of your given position will help vindicate your marketing.

Seriously, would you tell someone who wanted 1 1/2" sq bar "hand forged" it was impossible or explain how having the cool end of the bar in your hands while a powerhammer did YOUR bidding was indeed hand forging?

Heck, precisely controlling a powerhammer and the iron takes more skill than hand hammering.

Frosty

As a new-bee at smith'n, I experienced this with my attempt to forge Pick-axe ends that are about 1 1/2 " sq. tapering down.
After 3 heats to almost welding "yellow" temperature and using an 8# short handle hammer until my right arm just about fell off...I could not move or shape very much...I see what is limited now!

[petere76]

Forged vs. fabricated. Hand Hammered vs. machine pressed. Both are moot points because it is the Smith (artist) that has the vision and defines the process to produce a piece. Nothwithstanding the addition of the multi axis CNC rig Unkle quoted, most smiths carry the vison from a thought to a product. Be it simple or complex the process is essentially identical although the time variable is proportionaly to the tasking. This is the heart of the process. Tools, material and craft skills are the mechanism.

As is evidenced by the lively exchanges here on IFI, many a truth is truly said in jest, Sarcasism is one of our best means of information exchange and a good source of humor among friends.

Peter

[David Einhorn]

The line of handmade is exactly at what ever level of machine you use. The person that uses just one more machine, or die, or drill, is at the next level and no longer "handmade."

Very true. One of our local professionals started out as a rabid traditionalist, even his coal forge was hand drilled and bolted together. Over time he added tooling and eventually outsourcing many of the processes including the laser cutting of mass produced parts. The last time we were at his shop he said that his work has evolved to where he only hits each item enough times with a hammer to be able to say it was hand forged. :(

[GNJC]

Hello all,

I think that Frosty is correct about something still being handmade if a longer handle, trip-hammer or power-hammer is used: hand-eye and hands-on are the key factors… providing we are talking about a contemporary piece of work.

Having said that, I think it is very important that if something is described as being made ‘authentically’ for a given period, that it should be. For example, something copied from an eighteenth century original could well be made using a trip-hammer, but only welded using fire-welding; or something from the fifth century made with a striker but no mechanical hammer.

G.

[Avadon]

One could say the same thing about a potter using a pottery wheel. My take: If it takes a human hand and eye to make it and no two are ever (reasonably) identical then it is handmade.

[Avadon]

Very true. One of our local professionals started out as a rabid traditionalist, even his coal forge was hand drilled and bolted together. Over time he added tooling and eventually outsourcing many of the processes including the laser cutting of mass produced parts. The last time we were at his shop he said that his work has evolved to where he only hits each item enough times with a hammer to be able to say it was hand forged.

OMG LOL

Why fight it, were living in a modern world. Even if all the lights and power went off tommorow you'd still be in a world immensely more modern then what medieval blacksmiths had, so really who are they fooling. I think some people just like the idea of holding themselves to some traditional standard that they devised in their head lol

As for me, I like modern everything. If I could teach a robot to do the work for me I would :D

[Fe-Wood]

For me, stating that "this is hand made" means that it spent more time guided by my hand than in a CNC type of machine. Meaning- without my hand, it could never have been made...like that.

Traditionally or "period" made on the other-hand is more of a concept that a reality. Some of the "traditional" methods and devices are no longer available but the concept still is.

As Avadon started to say about repeatability. Machine runs produce items that would be hard to tell apart from the first made to the last made over a 1000 pieces. I do limited production runs of spun items and smithed items usually about 5-10 pieces. The variations are small but still there. To me that is were the art is... The form is there but they are not "perfect" or "identical". If five smiths made the same piece using the same techniques and machines, all hand driven...or foot, we would all have a different piece just because of the way we each hold things and see them differently. Machines, press' hammers and the like just help with the bull work. On the other hand, if those same smiths used five different CNC machine all programed individually yet the same, one would be hard pressed to see any differences at all.

Trading machine time for hand time is about $$$. The more machine time = more $$$ per hour conversely, More hand time = less $$$ per hour.... In most cases.

[double_edge2]

lol....if you did the design by keyboard with auto cad mathematicaly (no mouse) , manually translated the dxf or machine file and nested, on a home built cnc 5 axis machine, ...
sorry ill go now......

to add.... ive seen a bloke make lots of the same item , on a forge by hand and hammer, and not been able to pick the difference...hand made is hand made and though machines save labour, if there is still someone holding and manipulating the item, (adding i supose the analogue) through the process using swedges heat and force, and eye or rule as measure, as opposed to one shot, drop forged die, cnc or the like, i would consider it hand made.
and i might throw in, that for some , the imitation of the machine, as i have seen in the short time ive been on here again, some of you blacksmiths, make hand made items, that look machine made or finnished almost like no machine can, and items that no single machine can make.

ok to throw fruit now...

Edited August 15, 2009 by double_edge2

[Rich Hale]

There is a fine maker of sords that uses CNC technology to do most of the work. The sords are wonderful pieces of workmanship and they will tell you up front how they ar e made and refer you to their web site that shows the process. This is another way of work and I am impressed. But most importantly the honesty is wot I respect the most.

[mike-hr]

The first year I had my power hammer, I made a pick-up truck load of unrecognizable flattened lumps of scrap. I think most of us on this forum practice open-die smithing, meaning we as the driver guide the hammer, manual or power, to form metal to our liking, using hand-held tooling and and various differing blows, without a closed form. I've heard many people say 'If I only had a power hammer, I could make whatever I want'. That's just not true. A person needs a fine background in hand hammer and anvil work to get used to what plastic metal can do, a power hammer can make ugly scrap 15 times faster than hand forging, and hurt you bad in the process. The final product in either process is a result of the smiths planning and execution.

[Ten Hammers]

I like what Rich said the best. The honesty of saying I use a plasma to cut some stuff or "yes, that has a mig weld on it or yes that was gas welded " is where it's at for me. Some people just want to argue.

[Dave Hammer]

Matches??? You use matches? Shame on you....

You should be clacking two rocks together... or a string (which you made from sheep's wool) on a bow (stick) to turn another stick fast enough to generate the heat to create a spark in tinder (or are you using paper also?) ....

[ThomasPowers]

This is an *old* discussion in the craft world. You may want to look up the terms "Workmanship of certainty" and "Workmanship of risk" to get caught up with the discussion.

If it's the skill of the crafter that makes the item and not the machine then it qualifies as hand made---so open die forging is very much hand made but closed die forging is *not*

And the earliest I have seen documentation for a water powered hammer is before the year 1000 for a northern european tidal powered one---saw it at the Medieval Technology conference at Penn State about 20 years ago now...

I call a powerhammer a "smart apprentice" as it does what you tell it to do!

Thomas

[Dave Hammer]

Thomas Powers

I'm with you on this one......