Sam Thompson Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 There seems to be a shortage of anvils in the US. I know that many were destroyed in the civil war but that was quite a long time ago and there must have been ample opportunity to make some more. From the photos on this site I have the impression that a large proportion of the anvils in America were imported from GB. Floating lumps of iron across the pond and moving them large distances overland must have been an onerous process Was there no indigenous production? In the UK every farm had one and every village had at least one 'smith. There is a lot of choice and very few are as badly damaged as many of the specimens that people here inquire about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Dean Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 A large protion was melted down during WWII for the war effort. (scrap) Along with tons of other blacksmithing tools. Now a large portion are in collections with a few being sold but at an elevated price-IMO. I know of maybe a dozen or so sitting in barns not being used that belonged to 'my gandpa, or my greatgrandpa' etc and the present owner will not sale at any price. One gentleman has a complete blacksmith shop, all the tools you would want and just has it to look at, not a museum either, just his personnal 'stash'. And he know nothing about smithing....well, other than "you turn this 'bellows' handle to blow air on the fire." I'm sure there are other reasons but this does count for a large protion of them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKForge Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Sam I'll throw out my thoughts and let others jump in. Some observations I have made are as follows. 1. With the industrial revolution here in the states many farms and small towns where anvils were in use were simply left to not ring again in the barn, shed or shop where they were employed. Some of them are still there and no one knows about it. Some of the sheds and barns have fallen down around them and the anvils are sitting in the dirt. I know this for a fact because the first anvil I bought, a 212# William Foster dated 1854 was half buried in the ground and covered in weeds and it had been there for who knows how long. Had the older gentleman I purchased it from passed on without selling it it would never have been found and gone forever. 2. During the scrap drives surrounding WW2 many anvils were turned in to support the war effort. They were melted down and turned into munitions. 3. COLLECTORS! - Ok I will try to be nice. I love antiques and collect certain things as well. But, there are anvil collectors across the US with enough anvils to supply every aspiring blacksmith with at least one anvil if not more. The best quality anvils are in the hands of collectors while the beat up ones are those that the new blacksmith has to choose from. Collectors also tend to focus on the American made anvils such as Fisher's, Hay Buddens, Trentons etc. thus leaving the older GB anvils in the marketplace. Having said all of that, I have found and purchased five used anvils in the last year that are very good quality, certainly not collector quality, but very useable from a hobby blacksmith standpoint. All were purchased for less than $2 per #. They are out there but you must be diligent in your search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) I think Thomas has it about right. First, I don't think the situation is as dire as you think. The stuff about destroying anvils during the Civil War is mainly myth. And yes, there were lots of anvils made in the U.S.: Columbian, Hay-Budden, Fisher & Norris, Trenton, Vulcan, and a bunch of others. But as American society has urbanized I think many have been scrapped over the years. Edit: Or just lost, as DKForge is suggesting. (This craft of ours is currently experiencing something of a renaissance in the U.S., and has been for a while, but for a long time there it was darned near dead in America.) And yes, WWII accounted for the destruction of incredible amounts of old metal in this country -- not just anvils, but historical items (e.g., the Civil War cannons outside the county courthouse where I grew up) and lots of other wonderful stuff. All that said, anvils really aren't that hard to find here. I used to think they were, but I just hadn't learned how to look. The main problem is just that good ones tend to be somewhat expensive, and so many folks are looking for a deal. (There may be more demand here than in the U.K., too. I don't know.) Having to compete with collectors doesn't help; I don't know whether anvils are a collectible item in the U.K., but they are here. It also matters where in the U.S. you live. The parts that were settled later in history likely have fewer old anvils kicking around than places that have been continuously inhabited by metal-working European types for hundreds of years. Edited July 21, 2009 by MattBower Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drifter Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Add in the speculators and you have an even tougher time finding a good anvil. Drifter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) Sam I think this is merely an artifact of information filtering on the 'net I: a large number of them were not destroyed in the US Civil War---this is an "urban legend" 2: Actually there are several anvil companies in the USA whose production was in the hundreds of thousands of anvils Hay Budden, Fisher, Trenton, Arm and Hammer, Columbian etc were all major anvil makers in the US, (See Anvils in America for a rundown on makers and the numbers they did where possible) 3: You forget the size of America and the lack of population density back in the "anvil" period. Example: Area of United Kingdom 244,820 sq KM population in 1881 25,974,439 population in 2008 60,943,912 (July 2008 est.) so a bit more than double the 1880 number Area of just New Mexico---the state I live in---315,194 sq KM population in 1880 apx 150,000 population in 2008 1,984,356 so about a 10 times increase or as I tell folks; "If every ranch had a complete blacksmith's shop then the total number of them in 1880 would be about 5." My neighboring ranch is 260 sq km in size and it's a fairly "small" one out this way... So can you see where NM might be an anvil poor area now days? Places like Ohio that was thickly settled in the 1880's do have loads of anvils still about. I used to buy a good brand name anvil in great shape for under US$1 per pound every year when I lived in Ohio and of course Quad-State Blacksmiths Round-Up usually has over 100 for sale at it each year---we had a fellow go there one year and buy 30 of them for his "collection". A lot of the caterwauling you see on the net about not being able to find an anvil is pretty bogus. Folks are just not going about the right way of doing it. Sort of like going to horse shows looking to buy goats and complaining that they can't find any. In anvil poor New Mexico, I went out and found 2 anvils in one week when a friend needed one. Edited July 22, 2009 by ThomasPowers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I have sent out at least six messages in the past two weeks about where to find anvils and other tools in our area. - In one case the person procrastinated for days until "5 minutes" after the anvil was gone. - Same person could not walk two blocks from house to antique mall where blacksmith tools could be found. - Same person could not manage to attend this week's blacksmith meeting to network with smiths, and find leads to tools and classes. - And at least two other private messages to folks who were "desperate" to find anvils, but apparently not desperate enough to contact the person with anvils or otherwise pursue the information. I know of four anvils in good shape and very reasonably priced at less than $2 per pound, in some cases about $1.50 per pound, within a half mile of where I work, have informed people about them. Those anvils were still there when I stopped by during lunch time today. I have tried to help people on this forum that have expressed frustration about their inability to find usable affordable anvils. Bottom line is that I am baffled, and a bit frustrated. :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 UnicornForge, are you with BGCM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 UnicornForge, are you with BGCM? Matt, please check your private messages (PM). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Anvils are not plentiful out here in Arizona but just about anybody who is really serious about getting into smithing can find one. In the last ten years I have found about one a year at yard, estate or moving sales and passed them on to folk that wanted to get into smithing. As gimped up as I am, if I can find them in Arizona anybody should be able to get a hold of one.:cool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason L Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I live in Central Alabama and travel is limited for me at the moment so my search range is rather small. I've only seen two anvils in this county ever and I've never met anyone who knows where any are. The two that I found are at my work and the boss refuses to sell them because they are antiques and it's his retirement plan. He had them hidden just not well enough. It only took me about three months to find them lol. I've asked everybody I know and nobody has ever seen one around here. I'm sure they have they just don't remember it. The closest I've found one was an hour away and I bought it even though it was cast iron because it's the only one I had ever seen. I've been dealing with antiques for years by the way so I know all the hot spots to find the best stuff within my home range. I also am not rich so $500 is a lot to spend for a 100 lb anvil that's new. I work at a scrap metal yard so anyone throwing one out, I've got the word out to come and get me immediately. As of yet it hasn't happened. About 50 miles is as far as I can go at the moment to do anything and there is nothing within that range. I hear a lot about people paying $2 or less a pound for them but most of the ones I've seen for sale on Fleabay and craigslist are mostly closer to $5 and up although I have seen some cheaper ones. New ones must be made out of diamonds as some of them are higher than $6 a pound and almost all of them are higher than $5 a pound. I'm sure that anvils are common in other places but here, they are rare to non-existant. As I've said, I've been rooting around every antique shop within 100 mile radius and never found but one and I bought it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I have sent out at least six messages in the past two weeks about where to find anvils and other tools in our area. - In one case the person procrastinated for days until "5 minutes" after the anvil was gone. - Same person could not walk two blocks from house to antique mall where blacksmith tools could be found. - Same person could not manage to attend this week's blacksmith meeting to network with smiths, and find leads to tools and classes. - And at least two other private messages to folks who were "desperate" to find anvils, but apparently not desperate enough to contact the person with anvils or otherwise pursue the information. I know of four anvils in good shape and very reasonably priced at less than $2 per pound, in some cases about $1.50 per pound, within a half mile of where I work, have informed people about them. Those anvils were still there when I stopped by during lunch time today. I have tried to help people on this forum that have expressed frustration about their inability to find usable affordable anvils. Bottom line is that I am baffled, and a bit frustrated. :confused: I wouldn't get too frustrated. One of your PMs went to me, and I am pretty sure I wasn't looking for any anvils, other than a 400 pound Hay-Budden for a buck a pound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Parker Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 When the blacksmith bug bit me, I called a few friends and asked about an anvil. First, I was given a 100 hundred pound counter weight from a piece of heavy equipment. It worked great and even had a few groves on it (ad hoc swage). Next, I was given a 55 pound Chinese made ASO for 20 bucks. To sweeten the deal a 3-inch thick piece of steel was cut to size and welded to the top. It rang well, worked well and I had a workable 85-pound metal smashing platform. Next, I searched for blacksmith boards on yahoo and asked the groups if anyone had an anvil at a reasonable rate. I listed the three states that I knew I had friends and family and offered to purchase an anvil in one of them. I settled for a 132-pound hay budden complete with a NC tool stand for $220. Since then, neighbors and friends have dropped off three RR track anvils, one of which was a real work of passion. I am up hundreds of pounds of workable hammer magnets and only out $240 bucks and a few cases of beer for my brother in law. He offered to drive across Georgia to pick up the hay budden. Getting someone to drop it by Florida took a few more cases of beer and I had to wait a month. Moral of the story - network. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welder19 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 You would be sickened if you knew how many have been scraped, espeacially in the past few years, here alone at one little back woods junkyard we have gotten 10 brought in for scrap in the past 4 years and have picked up 5 at the local auction at an average of $20ea. There are also thousands of them sitting around in old barns and workshops, it used to be that every farm around had atleast one if not more. The scrap yard in Trenton where we sell most of our heavy iron has had dozens in the last few years and thats just the ones they caught, there are still some that they don't see that slip through or the ones that are spotted but by someone who doesn't care enough to grab them. They save up a couple pallets of them and then send them off to some atique dealer who gives them a bulk price for them, probably only a few cents per lb. They are around you just have to know where to look, but I am sure there are some areas that just don't have many of them. Most time it's not a matter of finding them as it is finding them for a decent price. welder19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Hi. It seems like in some areas anvils are scarce, and in others, they are common. I'll buy the stories of how people are looking around unsuccessfully for them. I have been one of them for quite a few years. The guru of anvilfire warns that you should not go to garage sales to look for anvils. You will just end up wasting a lot of time and gas. Now, some of the earlier posts say that they do show up at garage sales. Not around here!!!!! Boy do I have a lot of stories. I have NEVER seen an anvil at a garage or estate sale. OK, I saw one, but it was really a very small piece of railroad track with a ragged horn torch cut out of it. Several times, I had been 15 minutes late, and missed an anvil that had "just been sold." Odd, that shouldn't happen too often unless it is more like 2 years late. I have run into collectors at least thrice. Pushy self-sure folks, to be blunt. One guy told me that he had picked up 40 anvils over the years and never touched one of them with a piece of hot metal. Another told me, almost apologetically, that he started out intending to get into blacksmithing, but after he collected about half a dozen anvils, decided that he would rather collect than use. Another fellow told me that he makes sure to get to the sales no more than 10 minutes after they open, so he can beat out any blacksmiths who have real work and cannot arrive on the dot to every sale. I once found an anvil for a reasonable price on craigslist. $250 with a 1 and 1/4 inch hardy hole. Must have been pretty big. The seller refused to tell me how much it weighed, but said it was "huge". It actually turned out to be small. The hardy hole was so large because someone had torched it out. Didn't do a good job either. Rebound wasn't great. Must have torched a little too much. I was afraid the face would pop off if was used. An oldster at a garage sale told me that he was a blacksmith and he had an anvil. He wasn't sure where it was. After hemming and hawing for quite some time, he figured it might be at his son-in-law's. Oh yeah, his son-in-law complains about it being in the way all the time. Oh no, he doesn't want to sell it, especially not to me. Then he complains about how forge welding is so hard. Gee, I've got better things to do than sit around and waste time talking. After a while, I can almost hear the guru of anvilfire whispering "I told you so." The collectors and dealers have anvils. But they are so obnoxious that it is painful to buy from them, especially at an inflated price. I still don't own a real anvil. But now, I have demo gigs at four different places, and they all have an anvil (or more) . I'll buy one eventually, but at the rate that I am seeing them offered for sale, it will be at least a few more years. In that time, I can make a few more. I've already made 2, and they work just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 Well, thanks everyone; that seems to have about covered my question. The reason I asked was: Why does anyone have to use an anvil that most would consider worn out/broken? They do seem expensive in US, in the UK and I've never heard of anyone connected with the trade selling one by the pound. Over here a good usable Mousehole of about 21/2cwt (270lb) should be worth about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Dean Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Sam, over here if it is 100-150yrs old we think it extremely rare and protect it with much todo. Over there it ain't even broke in good! Would love to see your house, I bet it has many a good story to tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Sam you ought to get over here some time for Quad-State and see 800 blacksmiths get together for a conference and that's a minor few of all the ones out here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I'm sure that anvils are common in other places but here, they are rare to non-existant. As I've said, I've been rooting around every antique shop within 100 mile radius and never found but one and I bought it.Hay Budden Anvil Looks pretty darned nice, at least on the side he's showing. About $2.50 a pound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) There's nothing unusual about my house (except that it's octagonal). This is 5 mins down the road: Parts of it are nearly 1000yrs old. This isn't far away:http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.herefordwebpages.co.uk/images/kilpeck.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.herefordwebpages.co.uk/kilpeck.shtml&h=698&w=546&sz=103&tbnid=Fap5LJTcWj6jZM:&tbnh=139&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkilpeck%2Bchurch&hl=en&usg=____iqDHEYmsTxetXJxLYYW-Uoiks=&ei=8HBnStb4J5nSjAfz4YinAQ&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=5&ct=image a Edited July 22, 2009 by Sam Thompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt87 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 :D as an archaeologist (by training) I find Americans' sense of 'old' interesting so say the least! I've helped to dig up the remains of a manor house older than your nation... and that was was a fairly minor dig largely for training purposes. The small city where I live is at least 1800 years old, with large sections of the Roman city walls still extant. Some parts are visible, some form the foundations for buildings dotted around the city. The city centre has a number of mediaeval vernacular buildings, still used as shops and homes. There are also a number of ecclesiastical buildings of similar age still in use though they tend to be stone-built. Until the 20th century there were even more ancient buildings but many were demolished, partly due to the actions of the Luftwaffe in 1942 and partly due to slum clearances and dealing with chronic flooding. This is quite common over here! My current accommodation is a mere 90-odd years old :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason L Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Hey Matt, I've seen that anvil and I've had half a mind to call the guy about it but it's slightly further away than I'm able to travel at the moment. I would love to have it though, it looks like it's a really great one. I wish there were some a little closer to home, but for the next few weeks anyway I'm down for the count due. The forge I've been working on is sadly on hold also for the same reasons. Soon things will be back to normal and I hope to find another anvil within range that I can afford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgtwister Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 well i'm lucky i got dads anvil when he moved but have seen many listed on craigs list here but like welder19 said a lot have been scraped around here i got a post vice that came out of and old barn that was at a junkyard that they told me had alot of blacksmith stuff and some one else got the anvil and the rest was so buried in the pile i couldn,t seen the rest i find the word of mouth finds a lot of things and it doesn't hurt to ask Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 as an archaeologist (by training) I find Americans' sense of 'old' interesting so say the least! I've helped to dig up the remains of a manor house older than your nation... and that was was a fairly minor dig largely for training purposes. The small city where I live is at least 1800 years old, with large sections of the Roman city walls still extant. Some parts are visible, some form the foundations for buildings dotted around the city. The city centre has a number of mediaeval vernacular buildings, still used as shops and homes. There are also a number of ecclesiastical buildings of similar age still in use though they tend to be stone-built. Until the 20th century there were even more ancient buildings but many were demolished, partly due to the actions of the Luftwaffe in 1942 and partly due to slum clearances and dealing with chronic flooding. This is quite common over here! My current accommodation is a mere 90-odd years old Yes, well, around here anything older than 400 years will be man portable and made of stone, and you'll likely find it in a freshly plowed field after a rain, or in the wash of a creek or river. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 Ive just been walking in a wood immortalised by Milton, explaining to my dog that the ditch he's digging in is part of a late medieval field system. We are lucky in this country that neither our climate nor our wildlife is likely to kill us and the marks made by our ancestors are all around us. Maybe that ties us down. The unexploited landscapes of the 'New World' and the openness of its people are often a refreshing change. PS. I'm not sure the dog understood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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