Brasilikilt Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Hey all My welding cert and blacksmithing class are both going to end soon, and I dread the thought of not being able to hammer iron, or do welding anymore. I figure I would start with the centerpiece of any smithy and focus on getting a good anvil. I've seen smaller Peter Wrights go for around $250 on Ebay, and would consider myself lucky to be able to score one of those in good shape. I have a few questions regarding the selection of an anvil, forgive me for any lame-brained questions as I am obviously still learning :-) Why is a bigger/heavier anvil better?- If you securely attach a good quality smaller anvil to a heavy base, wouldn't that be solid and stable enough for larger work? Cast anvils- A lot of people seem to regard them as crap and often refer to the Harbor freight variety while rolling their eyes. My instructor, (who totally knows his Sh!#) says that tempered cast anvils are ideal, and could last 1,000 years if they're used properly and not abused. Anvils with bashed up edges and concave striking surface. These anvils that I see have obviously been ridden hard and put away wet. If you could buy one of these anvils at a reduced price, is there a cost effective method of restoring them? I know for some anvils it's probably not worth going through too much trouble, but for those good quality anvils that unfortunately spent too much time being abused by a hack blacksmith??? I've heard about welding on a tool-steel striking face and then re-tempering??? Anyways, once again I really appreciate any input I get. Thanks and take care Iain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 ok there are a few different chats you could find about a lot of your questions but to sum up heavyer is better cause it dosnt move so your hammer blow does more work . define heavyer work... most people dont hand forge anything bigger than 1/2 in or maybee 5/8 by hand .. a 100 lb anvil will handle that fine! on cheap cast anvils ... they are cast from maliable iron (not enuf carbon to harden) and are not hardened /tempered ... so when you hot them they dent ...in my opinion not worth messing with unless theyre free...there are lots of threads about repairing anvils do a search ..good luck ! btw who is your instructor? i might know him ive been a nwba member for over 20 years... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 (edited) Casting is a process not a material. Cast Steel makes a fine anvil (Kolshwa, Old World, Euroanvils). Cast Gray Iron does not (Harbor Freight). Cast Ductile iron makes a fine anvil if it is hardened (TFS). Malleable iron has over 2% carbon and will harden just fine but it is not as good as Ductile iron because it is not as tough (None). Hay Budden, Peter Wright, etc are usually forged from Wrought Iron (no carbon, dead soft) with a steel plate welded to the face (High Carbon, hardened). Peddinhause, Reflinghaus, etc are forged from high carbon steel, the sections are welded together, and the anvil face hardened. These make fine anvils but are the most expensive of the bunch. If you need a square edge, make a 1/2" thick plate with a square tube or solid shank welded to it to fit in the hardy hole. Make it wide enough to cover the face of the anvil and use the edges when needed. Edited May 30, 2009 by Quenchcrack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Didn't someone here just (yesterday or the day before) post about a large anvil in Oregon on craigslist? Attaching a light anvil to a heavy base helps but in no way equals a heavier anvil. Even welded down the gap where it's not welded will absorb energy instead of cleanly transmit and reflect it. Consider how an anvil got it's chips, dings and sway back. It got that way because someone spent a multitude of years, probably decades working on it. It worked well for a smith with many years of experience, are you SURE you want to mess with a working tool? Seriously, unless the damage is severe, like the face is mostly gone, it'll be fine. Radiusing an edge that's chipped, if it's in the working zone is probably a good idea, being new to the craft you're more likely to miss and a strike on an already weakened edge might chip it further. Rebuilding an anvil is an advanced project, there's a LOT to know and be good at to have a good probability of success and even then many anvils have been ruined in the attempt. It's entirely possible to ruin an anvil just cleaning up the face with a flap sander. Cast steel is good, the right kind of cast iron is acceptable if not the best. Steel face on wrought iron body is old school and usually good. There were so many anvil makers towards the middle end of the 19th c there was a large range of quality so there's no pat good/bad rating on forged body anvils. Lastly there are the steel face over cast body anvils. Steel faced cast iron body like Fisher Norris are as good as it gets They have terrific rebound but are quiet. Quiet is good in all situations except one; public demonstrations where you want the anvil's ring to draw an audience. Then there are steel faced on cast steel body, my Soderfors is one such. It's a terrific working anvil but is horrifically loud, even when you're hitting hot iron rather than the anvil. This is probably one reason I do NOT tap anvils while I work. There are techniques for quieting anvils down so they don't deafen you: magnets, chains, lead sheet, rubber sheet, etc. I morticed mine into a green spruce block and set it on a layer of clay which made it only painfully loud. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasilikilt Posted June 6, 2009 Author Share Posted June 6, 2009 Hello again I seriously have it bad! Thanks to all of you for taking the time to explain these things to me. It will undoubtedly prove to be very valuable information when purchasing my future anvil. Seriously, if you're armed with good info, it's less likely that you'll buy a very expensive hunk of junk! I've been cruising Craigslist and Ebay religiously and have found lots of beautiful anvils. I'd say my favorites (from the pics and word of mouth) have to be Peter Wrights. I plan on setting up at historical events, so a nice looking anvil is a factor. I'm looking for something small enough to haul around with me (not much more than 150 lbs) but large enough to use for general work at home. I know that I am just starting out, but I want something that I won't quickly grow out of as my skills improve. I have a feeling that most people on here with nice anvils tend to hold on to them, but if there's a slim chance that someone has something that they're willing to sell to a loving home, please send me a private message. thanks Iain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasilikilt Posted June 6, 2009 Author Share Posted June 6, 2009 Ohh, and my instructor is B. Romans from Clackamas Community College. He also reads this forum *wink* See ya this eve Sensei! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fat pete Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Why is a bigger/heavier anvil better?- it depends what you do .... but the more mass the less loss of energy...mass moves mass.... so when you wak it it takes all that energy...bigger anvils have larger working surfaces... If you securely attach a good quality smaller anvil to a heavy base, wouldn't that be solid and stable enough for larger work? sure alot of people starting out just want a mass of metal alot of things can be used for anvils...big drops, you want that steel face...you want a good rebound...it dont matter what it looks like as long as you can have an unmarred face and different edges to do different things....its nice if it has a few sharp edges too.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 (edited) Implied in the discussion is the phrase is "all other things being equal." More mass is better unless the extra mass is too soft for the work being asked of. Story time: Back in the 80's I had a rail anvil that was tied down to a big old block of oak. I was learning to forge and thought that I really needed a bigger anvil. I went to one of the country auctions and "won" a Sears Anvil for $100. Boy I thought I had gotten a real bargin!!. I got it home set my rail anvil off in the corner and bolted down that Sear Wonder Anvil. Well I got a piece of 1/2" hot and commenced to begin to try to forge it. Well I soon noticed that there were these little dings all over the face. Any way after a couple of months beating the Sear Wonder anvil shapeless (Short for Wonder what Sears was thinking when they put their name to this piece of cast iron XXXX) I sold the sears anvil for $10 bucks and put my railroad anvil back in its right place. I still have that rail anvil and I still use it when the narrow work surface is an advantage with the narrow horn. Edited June 6, 2009 by Charlotte spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Brasilikilt: While chipped edges may be a fault, that concave working surface is a feature! A small concave area is known as the "sweet spot" and a larger concave area will hurt nothing and is useful for straightening. By all means grind small (or even fairly large) chips into a radius. You rarely need or want a square corner. There's usually some place on the anvil with a square corner, that's all you need or make a hardy block. Best deals on anvils are usually found locally. Check local papers, "Little Nickel" etc. Run an ad "blacksmith tools wanted, anvils, vises, forges, tongs". Let everyone in your family know, you'd be surprised who has stuff or knows another relative who does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Good Morning, Tom Clark has passed away, his Ozark School of Blacksmithing, is closing Ozark School Of Blacksmithing They still have some anvils for sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 (edited) Then there are steel faced on cast steel body, my Soderfors is one such. It's a terrific working anvil but is horrifically loud, even when you're hitting hot iron rather than the anvil. This is probably one reason I do NOT tap anvils while I work. There are techniques for quieting anvils down so they don't deafen you: magnets, chains, lead sheet, rubber sheet, etc. I morticed mine into a green spruce block and set it on a layer of clay which made it only painfully loud. Frosty So that is why people will do like several hammer strokes and then lightly hammer/tap their anvil to deaden or upset the ring? I seriously had no idea they were doing that. I just thought they were resting their hand or something lol. Edited June 9, 2009 by mod07 excessive quote reduction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip in china Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I think a lot of the "big is better" argument has to be taken in context. When somebody begins then a 100# farriers anvil seems huge and very heavy. For most smiths, however, it would be entirely inappropriate as being too light and the wrong shape. If you are working largely alone and if you are unlikely ever to be forging more than say 1" bar then really something like my Brooks 2.2.0 is all you will ever need. At 280 it is big and heavy enough not to move around when hit by me yet small enough to be movable. Would a 500# Euroanvil be better? Well maybe once a year when I am striking and forging something really big then yes it would be more efficient. Would this make up for the extra effort involved in trying to move it during the rest of the year - probably not! To extend the argument further would a 1,000 anvil be of more use than that 500 pound Euro- almost certainly not! I don't do huge forgings with teams of strikers with heavy hammers. So just think within the bands of what you are likely to use. Having said which if you have a choice between an equivalent quality 300 pounder and a 200 pounder at the same money then go for the bigger one even if you plan only to do small stuff. Also look at what the guys who know what they are doing use. Interestingly Master Hofi makes his anvil in only 1 size. Do you think there might be a reason for that? It is a 280. That means it is big enough to do effectively anything you will ever want to do but is small enough still to be managable without a team of guys to move it! The newly produced Rhinos come in 140, 240 and 340 pounds. That is one small enough to travel, a mid sized shop anvil and a heavy one for accepting heavy striking. Sorry to have rambled on for so long but I hope my insight has been helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 No tapping doesn't decrease the ring it just makes it ring louder. Its done due to habbit, tradition, thinking, keeping a rhythm going while turning a piece or even to give a bit of zing on the upstroke every once in a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasilikilt Posted June 9, 2009 Author Share Posted June 9, 2009 Hey all After reading all of your comments and doing a little research of my own I've rested on getting something preferably no more than 150 lbs. I simply don't *need* something huge for what I'm doing, and also it needs to be something that I can move around on my own without too much trouble. Ideally I would like to get a 150# Peter Wright I also took a look in our very own tailgating section and saw a few anvils that seem to be just what I'm after. It's just too bad that they're all so far away. The shipping cost would bump me over my $300 anvil budget. I still need to think about buying/building a coal forge and getting a post vise. thanks again for the responses! Iain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 in case you have not noticed, we have at the present time 11 anvils for sale here in our IFI tailgating section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 $300 for a 150# PW on the west coast? You are going to have to go out and beat the bushes for that! Good Luck and start talking with folks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 No tapping doesn't decrease the ring it just makes it ring louder. Its done due to habbit, tradition, thinking, keeping a rhythm going while turning a piece or even to give a bit of zing on the upstroke every once in a while. Crazy.. so it's like blacksmiths turrets sorta. lol I was always under the impression you never want to hit the face of any anvil with a hardened steel and if you did that on a friends nice anvil they may just give you a good talking to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Not a hit. Just a tap. Watched a demo guy using a 4lb hammer tap every 4th stroke. Not a mark to be seen. Ever do a rebound test? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasilikilt Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 I've been beating the bushes and got a response from somebody who had this to say: Hello: I do have an anvil that I purchased at an Estate Sale this last Winter. It is the one with the Eagle embossed on the side with the weight embossed on the bottom edge. It is mounted on a fir stump piece and I have not done anything with it yet. Eagle Embossed on the side??? Could that be a Fisher Norris perhaps? I am writing for more info to see what he says. Yes I know, a 150# Peter Wright for $300 out here is very hopeful, especially after having been offered a 110# Vulcan for $300, but I have been basing these prices off of Ebay with a loose shipping calculation thrown in there. All in all Fed Ex will ship 140 lbs from the east coast for around 100 bucks. Ack! it hurts, but that's what I may have to do in order to get a quality piece out here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Ebay! I think ebay is about the worst place to get info on blacksmithing equipment! When I run across someone who tells me "well that's what they bring on e-bay" I tell them to sell it on e-bay! That's almost certainly a Fisher and frankly in my opinion makes a better "in town" anvil than any other brand. Of course my main shop anvil is a 500# Fisher rather than then 400# Trenton... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloscheider Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 put a want ad in your local paper(s) and on Craigs list. You may be surprised by what people have in their garage that they don't want anymore.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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