My first forge welds!

[Bob JS]

Well the postman finally delivered the box of borax I ordered, so I thought i'd give forge welding a try.

First I tried to weld some rebar. I thought I had a weld first time but it was too good to be true and came apart when I tested it. Looking back I forgot to rotate the work in the fire and I dont think I got both parts hot enough.

Had more sucess with some 3/16 mild and made an eye on the end of a rod. There was pause in welding here as I forged a rudimentary bick to refine the eye (too small for my blunt anvil horn).

The ring did not go as smoothly and I had to weld it in three sections, unfortunately burning it up a little.

Had a lot of fun, and learned a lot.

ps. Ive got the Lorelei Sims book which details forge welding with coal by forming crusts and caves etc - does anyone have any additional advice on forgewelding, particularly with pure coke??

Thanks

[Charlotte]

Congratulations. The first weld is the most difficult.

I'm not supprised that you had trouble with the rebar. I've come to the reluctant conclusion that there is some of it that just doesn't forge weld easily. It is kind of a dice roll when you try it.

Forge welding mild steel is needs more heat than higher grade steels.

Welding with coke or charcoal both reqiuire rather deep fires with as much above as below it. With coke once you have you item to yellow/orange heat back off the air and let it come up and soak. I know that I tend to overdraft coke fires and have observed other people do that also.

[Black Maple Forge]

Congratulations. The first weld is the most difficult.

I'm not supprised that you had trouble with the rebar. I've come to the reluctant conclusion that there is some of it that just doesn't forge weld easily. It is kind of a dice roll when you try it.

Forge welding mild steel is needs more heat than higher grade steels.

Welding with coke or charcoal both reqiuire rather deep fires with as much above as below it. With coke once you have you item to yellow/orange heat back off the air and let it come up and soak. I know that I tend to overdraft coke fires and have observed other people do that also.

I said the EXACT SAME THING today!

I tried welding 3/8" rebar to 1/2" mild steel... It didn't work so well. I decided that reduction would be better than welding-for what I was making.:cool:

[Rob Browne]

Great first go. Very impressive but I would be trying on a bit of mild steel instead of re-bar, it can be a mix of anything that is lying around when they were making it, whereas the mild is a more even mix.

[Hammered]

Just keep at it. I did my very first forgeweld back in the winter. Strangely enough I tried welding rebar as well and wasn't very happy with the results. Since then I've tried forgewelding again and again. I'm still far from perfect, but I tend to think my welds are getting better.

[Francis Trez Cole]

Re bar is a very inconsistent metal made from a lot of scrap. Great job keep practing.

[Joseff]

Yes, my first forge weld was so satisfying, even though it was a simple lap weld on some 1/2" round scrap. Its true, the first is the hardest, but the feeling of accomplishment is sooo good.
Joseff

[dablacksmith]

with coke go a bit deeper on the fire than your used to pile on a few extra shovelfulls .. and try with something a wee bit bigger for stock say 3/8 th or 1/2 in the bigger mass takes longer to heat but holds it longer .. and keep the blower going but not as fast as you initally think give it a slow heat to get it all heated even . make sure the piece is covered by a layer of coke but you still need to be able to see it( i know that sounds hard but ..) for your first weld it looks good! and remember forge welding generally will produce more clinkers and will plug up the fire faster than regular forgeing so dont be suprised if you have to take the fire apart after a few hours of forge welding.. good luck!

[Bully]

Well done Bob I'm still trying to forge weld and as said the word is "still". I tried to weld 2 different thicknesses being a coke shovel to handle but could not get them at the right temp at the right time, never mind its all experience. I had limited succes with 2 peices of the same thickness with a fresh fire. Tomorrow when I light up I will try a deeper fire as been mentioned above. Cheers

[Wayne]

Congratulations,
The only thing I can offer is to take your time heating up the bar and making sure it is soaked all the way through - not just the outside.
Where did you order your Borax from? when I weld I tend to pop down to Boots and buy a box from there, it froths up a bit in use but it has worked for me..

[Bob JS]

Thanks everyone for all the good advice and support.

I had another go yesterday, I used a big rusty wrought nail. I wasnt really making anything but wanted to test out a new punch and try welding again.
The phone rang just after the weld, so I had to shut everything down to deal with that -result was a cold lump of iron covered in scale and crusty flux. Gave it a quick going over with a file to examine the weld - I was very pleased to see solid iron emerge through the slag.


Ok, nothing pretty but makes a very serviceable keyring.

I got the borax from ebay - one of those natural 100% borax products, probably with an eco friendly price mark up. Frothed up but seemed to melt ok.

The process Im using is:
Prep surfaces, heat to light red, wire brush the scale off and apply flux while iron is still red, bung it in the fire, crank up the air untill I see white light then shut it down to tick over, I then waited untill I could smell the flux, watched for and counted a couple of sparks, bring it out knock it on the anvil then give it a couple of positive but light blows then lots of small taps (like planishing) with a 1lb hammer.

(this is based on reading through lots of 'how to forge weld' material, they all seem slightly different)

Am I on the right tracks with this process? How could I improve?

Thanks again.
Bob

Edited May 11, 2009 by Bob JS

[Wayne]

You can get a big box of Borax from Boots for a couple of quid....

[Bob JS]

Thanks Wayne, I will check to see if my local Boots has it next time I go in to town.

I bought 1.2kg with postage it cost me

[Rob Browne]

No need to ask if you are on the right track. Just look at your last attempt. It worked!

I try to weld just before the sparking temperature and bring my bits up to temperature quite slowly so they are heated right through but its basically the same as you describe.

Keep at it. Each time you fire up just do a weld on a piece of scrap to keep your hand in.

[nonjic]

Lots of boots stores do NOT sell borax anymore. I have been buying from Wilkinsons (the larger had ones have it with all the washing / cleaning additives)

But, STOP PRESS ! - last time I was in Tescos they had it,

[Bentiron1946]

My wife had me sitting in a chair while she was cleaning out the garage. I was going through a box of "junk" and there was my first successful forge weld. I was sitting there with this big smile on my face and she asked me if I'd found a picture of an old girlfriend and I said no just my first forge weld. She didn't think much of it but to me it was priceless. When I die they can put in the coffin with me. What an accomplishment it was for me. Keep practicing, you will better, we all did.:cool:

[Bob JS]

Just throught i'd share my latests welds.

Based on all your advice I built a big hot fire then took slice off the top and layed the work on the hot coke, then raked a thin layer over the top so that I could still see a few bits of steel peeking through. With a deep fire it didnt need much air at all to stay hot enough.

I found that alongside the benefits of being able to more easily monitor the colour of the steel, this method forced me to take a longer, soaking heat.

I selected a couple of old railway bolts that I thought were wrought, based on the wood bark rust effect - which when chipped off revealed a nice black layer. I now think they must be a carbon steel - which would explain why it took me hours to draw them out over the horn. (would these be any good for making punches etc? or do you think I would need more carbon content?)

I think I need to get a cross pein, some fullers or dress an edge on my anvil for this??- but it provided a couple of hours practice of hammer control.

I also really noticed the difference in energy return between the horn and the face when I started rounding.

I did the ring first which Im am very pleased with, you can just see the line of the scarf on the inside of the ring, I gave the outside a quick file to check the weld was good, then gave it bash with a lump when cold.

The oval link didn't go quite as smoothly, and I was getting tired so its a bit more 'rustic'. It is welded but I didn't blend in the scarfs as well.

Being oval it wasnt as easy to work on the horn, and the first ring did get in the way a bit so I had difficulty getting all the movements in during the temperature range.

Thanks again for all your help.

Btw, Can you 'over flux' on a weld? by this i mean, would extra flux effect the weld, or woudl it just make more mess in the forge?

Bob

[dablacksmith]

you can over flux .. but it mostly just makes a bigger mess in the fire... but that is a verry bad thing ! as the coal or coke gets covered with flux it quits burning makeing a non burning lump of crap in your fire that soaks up the heat without produceing any.. clinkers are the result and they can keep you from getting welding heat...good welds!

[Reid Neilsen]

The more carbon in the steel the easier it is to burn so yeah, I agree with some of the other fellas - mild steel should be easier to weld than carbon steel. It wont burn as easily that is for sure. The photos look good! If the pieces are simply welding practice, a good test is the old "hammer on it cold in a vice as see if it holds" test to see how strong the welds are. If you cant pop the weld with a few good solid blows, I'd say you have succeeded! Another method is heat the whole eye AND weld up, and put it in a vice and put a cold rod through the eye. Start to twist. If you can twist it round a few times without the weld coming undone you have a good weld.

[John B]

Try welding the oval ring together at the end rather than in the centre, gives more room to work on the horn for rounding the weld and gives the joined ring more freedom whilst manipulating for forging

[Frosty]

You're welds are really coming along Bob.

Next time weld it round then forge it into an oval. You don't think they deliberately did it the hard way back when do you?

Next time you want to make a loop or ring handle like your first attempt try this. Instead of bending it into a keyhole shape and fagot welding, try rolling the overlap into the ring (think short section of coil spring with an inch or so lap in the coil) and welding. That way it won't deform the ring as much as you weld it, there won't be the fork of thinned but unwelded metal between the weld and ring and best of all it's really hard to apply a parting force on the weld itself.

It has everything I look for in a technique: It's easier, faster, looks better and best of all it's stronger. The attached pics show both sides of what I mean. Pic 1 is the overlaped side, pic 2 is the back side. This was done by a buddy a year or so ago and I haven't done one the other way since.

Frosty

Edited May 19, 2009 by Frosty

[duckybackery]

good gob nice i want to do one some day maybe buy a camera when i get more money.

[Frosty]

Say Ducky:

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Frosty