lx450landcruiser Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Hello all and first off what a great fourm this is. Im new to forging and id liek to try some damascus/pattern welding. What im looking for is high contrast etching. For now I will start with the basic line patterns. These will be for a kitchen knife set (including the knife block) At the moment im most concerned about astetics as these will only be looked at (a model if you will) My question is what types of metal will give me this high contrast? Ive seen stainless 340, stainless 420 with added Molibdenum Vanadium. and it was basically exactly what i want. Im having a hard time finding the stainless 420 locally and im not sure how you add Molibdenum Vanadium. SO my question is is there other types of metals that will give me this same type of contrast? thanks so much mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Welcome aboard Mike, glad to have you. Making pattern welded knives is more than a beginner's project. Kind of like learning to walk by entering a foot race. You'll enjoy a higher chance of success by learning to forge before you venture into bladesmithing and once you're reasonably competent as a bladesmith the fancier techniques will be more likely to succeed pattern welding being a good case in point. If you'll click "User CP" at the top of the page and edit your profile to show your location it'll be a big help. IFI is represented by members from more than 50 countries and a lot of info is location specific. Also, if folk know where you are you're more likely to be invited to get togethers, tipped to tool deals and get some hands on help. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 in addition, by starting with Stainless steels? you just moved the learning to walk by entering a foot race, into entering Le mans. Welcome to the forum, and knifemaking, but please read a bit more before you start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lx450landcruiser Posted March 26, 2009 Author Share Posted March 26, 2009 thanks for the replys. I understand the process is a difficult one but im confident with time ill be able to achieve what i want. Im not new to metal working completely, just forging. Ive been welding for many many years and have toyed with metal for some time. I dont mean to come into this fourm and ask alot of simple minded questions (i know how irritating that can be) Just looking for some quick guidence to get started. thanks mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 hope no one minds.... First, basic pattern welding is NOT difficult at all, it just takes practice and time..some patterns alot more time than others...what we are trying to say is best put this way...unless you are already capapble of making a good "honest" knife in high carbon, wait until you can and then start on the pattern welding. Why would you want to make a $50.00 knife out of a $500.00 piece of steel? and... Second: There is no such thing as a simple minded question. If you don't know..you don't know so always feel free to ask because we all started out knowing nothing... Just my tuppence... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blafen Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Yeah take it from it is quite disheartening to a beginner to get what they think is a nice solid pattern welded billet that falls apart when they try to forge it into a knife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zsartell Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 I understand you wanting to know where to get high contrasting stainless steels for future projects. I usually start in over my head on most projects, but I usually like to punish myself as well. I'm sure you're going to start by welding up some scrap to begin with, but it sure doesn't hurt to keep your options open when you get a little practice in. I've also been looking for that 420 stainless with the Molibdenum and Vanadium. I've used 304L and 316L, but it is just not quite what I want. I'm not much into making knives, but I love making damascus. I'm hoping my new mini press will help me out in that department (I'm sure it will). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzertank27 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 can one really add alloys (vanadium ,etc) to steel in a home type setting ??? cause if i can........ whoa i see lots of experiments in my future... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 No, you can soak in carbon if you are willing to deal with the time and temps---usually far cheaper in fuel costs to just get the right stuff to start. Most other alloying elements you would have to keep red hot for *years* to get effective diffusion into your steel. Now when doing pattern welded billets you can add alloys that contain the elements you want and with enough folding and welding you get fairly homoginized steel---think about it if the nominal layer thickness is smaller than the iron molecule, can you really consider it a layer anymore? Now if you want to experiment with your own alloying look into thermite experiments done by a fellow and posted over at the bladesmith's cafe at swordforum.com. Of course you have little control on uptake in such experiments. And thermite does not play nice, any mistakes and you will be on the evening news and the FBI's "list". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnptc Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 (edited) 420V is available at www.mcmaster.com nickel and high carbon give great contrast Edited March 28, 2009 by johnptc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lx450landcruiser Posted March 28, 2009 Author Share Posted March 28, 2009 (edited) thanks for the link. I gave it a go yesterday before i had to leave for a BBQ, i used just cold rolled steel and stainless 304. It worked pretty well quite the pattern for the first time id say. It didnt seem to want to etch too well though. I tried using pcb etcher. Are people diluting this etching solvent or just strait solution? I left it in for about 15 min and the contrast was great, however after a quick rinse with water the black rubbed off. any suggestions? Edited March 28, 2009 by lx450landcruiser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zsartell Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Most people I know have the best luck with a 4 to 1 solution of Ferric Chloride and water. As far as getting that black layer to stick around, perhaps someone else can help out with that. I'm currently experimenting with using baking lacquers and so far they are working fairly well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lx450landcruiser Posted March 28, 2009 Author Share Posted March 28, 2009 heres a couple pics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 nice start, but you do realize that 304 and mild wont hold much of an edge,. not enough carbon to harden. High carbon steel with the 304 should not only allow you a usable edge, but etch darker, for stronger contrast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lx450landcruiser Posted March 28, 2009 Author Share Posted March 28, 2009 (edited) nice start, but you do realize that 304 and mild wont hold much of an edge,. not enough carbon to harden. High carbon steel with the 304 should not only allow you a usable edge, but etch darker, for stronger contrast. As i said in my first post "At the moment im most concerned about aesthetics as these will only be looked at (a model if you will)" Id love to use the 420v and 304 but the shear cost of the 420v makes me want to look at other options. What exactly is high carbon steel? Where would i find it? Edited March 28, 2009 by lx450landcruiser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnptc Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 high carbon steel: simple ones like 1080 or 1090 or tool steels like o1 w1 a2 etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lx450landcruiser Posted March 29, 2009 Author Share Posted March 29, 2009 thanks Il have to look into that at the steel yard. heres a pic of the pattern welded blade after being cleaned. the pattern is visable but just not enough contrast. Also i tried cable damascus for the first time and this is the result. again no enough contrast for me. any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 While I am impressed that you were able to weld stainless, You still need to read up on what causes the various colors oin the steels, and you may make other choices for steels, or etchants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Bennett Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 (edited) ........... Now if you want to experiment with your own alloying look into thermite experiments done by a fellow and posted over at the bladesmith's cafe at swordforum.com. Of course you have little control on uptake in such experiments. And thermite does not play nice, any mistakes and you will be on the evening news and the FBI's "list". That's true. I heard someone say once; "You need the right combination brains and brass when messing with large thermite charges. Too much of one and not the other, will inevitably get you in some form of trouble". Welcome, BTW. Don't be afraid to ask the bold questions and try new stuff. Edited March 31, 2009 by steve sells rephrased rude term Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leroyk Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 if youare just starting to forge weld the best pattern getting steels are a mix of 1084 and 1095 and 15n20 the 15 n20 is an alloy with some nickel in this will produce a nice contrast and also makes a very sturdy knife leroyk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lx450landcruiser Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 Thanks for all the tips. I have located a source for the 15N20 however if i understand this right if i tried to mix stainless 304 and 15N20 the contrast wont be as great as if i mixed 1084/15N20? Im assuming the nickel in the 15N20 would make the color shiny and bright and the stainless would do the same after etching? Is there any issues with the 1084/15N20 combo not being corrosive resistent? thanks mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) all carbon steels need oiled to prevent corrosion, IF you are worried about corrosion, AND want a nice looking blade that will cut AND hold an edge, try D-2 and the 304 you have. Also a long slow etch is more even that a short fast one. Not beginner steels, but as you are already forge welding 304, it should not be a problem for you. and will make a good blade. even a mix, of more d-2 to less 304 is fine. Edited April 15, 2009 by steve sells typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtucker Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 mike if step in to the fire , I would find a small engine shop and ask old mower blades in most cases is 1080 and then go to welding shop and see if they have any used bandsaw blades or saw mill, this are mostly L6 or 15-20 this will give you good contrast and this will be good practice metal at no cost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lx450landcruiser Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 all carbon steels need oiled to prevent corrosion, IF you are worried about corrosion, AND want a nice looking blade that will cut AND hold an edge, try D-2 and the 304 you have. Also a long slow etch is more even that a short fast one. Not beginner steels, but as you are already forge welding 304, it should not be a problem for you. and will make a good blade. even mis, of more d-2 to less 304 is fine. Any recommendations on where I can find D2 tool steel in sheet form? I will def look into saw mills, fab shops ect but would be nice to just order it some place and be ready to go. Thanks again for all the suggestions Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnptc Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Any recommendations on where I can find D2 tool steel in sheet form? I will def look into saw mills, fab shops ect but would be nice to just order it some place and be ready to go. Thanks again for all the suggestions MikeMcMaster-Carr has 1/16 inch thick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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