Hello all and first off what a great fourm this is.

Im new to forging and id liek to try some damascus/pattern welding. What im looking for is high contrast etching. For now I will start with the basic line patterns. These will be for a kitchen knife set (including the knife block) At the moment im most concerned about astetics as these will only be looked at (a model if you will) My question is what types of metal will give me this high contrast? Ive seen stainless 340, stainless 420 with added Molibdenum Vanadium. and it was basically exactly what i want. Im having a hard time finding the stainless 420 locally and im not sure how you add Molibdenum Vanadium. SO my question is is there other types of metals that will give me this same type of contrast?

thanks so much
mike

Welcome aboard Mike, glad to have you.

Making pattern welded knives is more than a beginner's project. Kind of like learning to walk by entering a foot race. You'll enjoy a higher chance of success by learning to forge before you venture into bladesmithing and once you're reasonably competent as a bladesmith the fancier techniques will be more likely to succeed pattern welding being a good case in point.

If you'll click "User CP" at the top of the page and edit your profile to show your location it'll be a big help. IFI is represented by members from more than 50 countries and a lot of info is location specific. Also, if folk know where you are you're more likely to be invited to get togethers, tipped to tool deals and get some hands on help.

Frosty

in addition, by starting with Stainless steels? you just moved the learning to walk by entering a foot race, into entering Le mans.

Welcome to the forum, and knifemaking, but please read a bit more before you start.

thanks for the replys. I understand the process is a difficult one but im confident with time ill be able to achieve what i want. Im not new to metal working completely, just forging. Ive been welding for many many years and have toyed with metal for some time. I dont mean to come into this fourm and ask alot of simple minded questions (i know how irritating that can be) Just looking for some quick guidence to get started.

thanks
mike

hope no one minds....

First, basic pattern welding is NOT difficult at all, it just takes practice and time..some patterns alot more time than others...what we are trying to say is best put this way...unless you are already capapble of making a good "honest" knife in high carbon, wait until you can and then start on the pattern welding. Why would you want to make a $50.00 knife out of a $500.00 piece of steel?

and...

Second: There is no such thing as a simple minded question. If you don't know..you don't know so always feel free to ask because we all started out knowing nothing...

Just my tuppence...

JPH

Yeah take it from it is quite disheartening to a beginner to get what they think is a nice solid pattern welded billet that falls apart when they try to forge it into a knife.

I understand you wanting to know where to get high contrasting stainless steels for future projects. I usually start in over my head on most projects, but I usually like to punish myself as well. I'm sure you're going to start by welding up some scrap to begin with, but it sure doesn't hurt to keep your options open when you get a little practice in.

I've also been looking for that 420 stainless with the Molibdenum and Vanadium. I've used 304L and 316L, but it is just not quite what I want. I'm not much into making knives, but I love making damascus. I'm hoping my new mini press will help me out in that department (I'm sure it will).

can one really add alloys (vanadium ,etc) to steel in a home type setting ???
cause if i can........ whoa i see lots of experiments in my future...

No, you can soak in carbon if you are willing to deal with the time and temps---usually far cheaper in fuel costs to just get the right stuff to start. Most other alloying elements you would have to keep red hot for *years* to get effective diffusion into your steel.

Now when doing pattern welded billets you can add alloys that contain the elements you want and with enough folding and welding you get fairly homoginized steel---think about it if the nominal layer thickness is smaller than the iron molecule, can you really consider it a layer anymore?

Now if you want to experiment with your own alloying look into thermite experiments done by a fellow and posted over at the bladesmith's cafe at swordforum.com. Of course you have little control on uptake in such experiments. And thermite does not play nice, any mistakes and you will be on the evening news and the FBI's "list".

420V is available at www.mcmaster.com
nickel and high carbon give great contrast

Edited March 28, 200917 yr by johnptc

thanks for the link. I gave it a go yesterday before i had to leave for a BBQ, i used just cold rolled steel and stainless 304. It worked pretty well quite the pattern for the first time id say. It didnt seem to want to etch too well though. I tried using pcb etcher. Are people diluting this etching solvent or just strait solution? I left it in for about 15 min and the contrast was great, however after a quick rinse with water the black rubbed off. any suggestions?

Edited March 28, 200917 yr by lx450landcruiser

Most people I know have the best luck with a 4 to 1 solution of Ferric Chloride and water. As far as getting that black layer to stick around, perhaps someone else can help out with that. I'm currently experimenting with using baking lacquers and so far they are working fairly well.

heres a couple pics

nice start, but you do realize that 304 and mild wont hold much of an edge,. not enough carbon to harden. High carbon steel with the 304 should not only allow you a usable edge, but etch darker, for stronger contrast.

nice start, but you do realize that 304 and mild wont hold much of an edge,. not enough carbon to harden. High carbon steel with the 304 should not only allow you a usable edge, but etch darker, for stronger contrast.

As i said in my first post "At the moment im most concerned about aesthetics as these will only be looked at (a model if you will)"

Id love to use the 420v and 304 but the shear cost of the 420v makes me want to look at other options.

What exactly is high carbon steel? Where would i find it?

Edited March 28, 200917 yr by lx450landcruiser

high carbon steel: simple ones like 1080 or 1090

or tool steels like o1 w1 a2 etc

thanks Il have to look into that at the steel yard. heres a pic of the pattern welded blade after being cleaned. the pattern is visable but just not enough contrast. Also i tried cable damascus for the first time and this is the result. again no enough contrast for me. any suggestions?

While I am impressed that you were able to weld stainless, You still need to read up on what causes the various colors oin the steels, and you may make other choices for steels, or etchants.

...........

Now if you want to experiment with your own alloying look into thermite experiments done by a fellow and posted over at the bladesmith's cafe at swordforum.com. Of course you have little control on uptake in such experiments. And thermite does not play nice, any mistakes and you will be on the evening news and the FBI's "list".

That's true. I heard someone say once; "You need the right combination brains and brass when messing with large thermite charges. Too much of one and not the other, will inevitably get you in some form of trouble".

Welcome, BTW. Don't be afraid to ask the bold questions and try new stuff.

Edited March 31, 200917 yr by steve sells
rephrased rude term

if youare just starting to forge weld the best pattern getting steels are a mix of 1084 and 1095 and 15n20 the 15 n20 is an alloy with some nickel in this will produce a nice contrast and also makes a very sturdy knife leroyk

Thanks for all the tips. I have located a source for the 15N20 however if i understand this right if i tried to mix stainless 304 and 15N20 the contrast wont be as great as if i mixed 1084/15N20? Im assuming the nickel in the 15N20 would make the color shiny and bright and the stainless would do the same after etching? Is there any issues with the 1084/15N20 combo not being corrosive resistent?

thanks
mike

all carbon steels need oiled to prevent corrosion, IF you are worried about corrosion, AND want a nice looking blade that will cut AND hold an edge, try D-2 and the 304 you have. Also a long slow etch is more even that a short fast one.

Not beginner steels, but as you are already forge welding 304, it should not be a problem for you. and will make a good blade. even a mix, of more d-2 to less 304 is fine.

Edited April 15, 200917 yr by steve sells
typo

mike if step in to the fire , I would find a small engine shop and ask old mower blades in most cases is 1080 and then go to welding shop and see if they have any used bandsaw blades or saw mill, this are mostly L6 or 15-20 this will give you good contrast and this will be good practice metal at no cost

all carbon steels need oiled to prevent corrosion, IF you are worried about corrosion, AND want a nice looking blade that will cut AND hold an edge, try D-2 and the 304 you have. Also a long slow etch is more even that a short fast one.

Not beginner steels, but as you are already forge welding 304, it should not be a problem for you. and will make a good blade. even mis, of more d-2 to less 304 is fine.

Any recommendations on where I can find D2 tool steel in sheet form?

I will def look into saw mills, fab shops ect but would be nice to just order it some place and be ready to go.

Thanks again for all the suggestions

Mike

Any recommendations on where I can find D2 tool steel in sheet form?

I will def look into saw mills, fab shops ect but would be nice to just order it some place and be ready to go.

Thanks again for all the suggestions

Mike

McMaster-Carr has 1/16 inch thick