Alan Evans

Funny old world isn't it with the idea of making non toxic military bullets. The solid ones I was thinking of are Hornady GMXes but they are hunting specific expanding with a ballistic tip. The most forgiving and ductile of the copper alloys, especially for hot forging, that I have found is the ColdurA silicon bronze from Columbia Metals. That has a good warm colour, well warmer at least than 60/40 brass. I am fascinated by your thermal cycling process. How did you discover that? Alan

You are welcome! Two plus points to my positive pressure system I forgot to mention:- The fan blows fresh air over the area where we are standing when forging, which is great for personal health and comfort! The positive pressure of course helps push any smoke or fumes coming off the gas furnace or coke hearth up the the flue/smoke hood. An ordinary extractor system of course has the opposite effect and sucks the fumes back out of the flue into the room, or at least slows its progress up the flue. Alan

My old school books describe Gilding Metal as being a brass (copper and zinc) with a copper content of 80% and over. Nice to work and warmer colour than 60/40 brass and more golden than the red of copper. I noticed that the bullet manufacturers are now doing lead replacement soft nose solid bullets in 95/5 alloys. As far as forming the gutter section of the flames I would do much as Timothy described under a press. Ian, could you cope with 3/16" under an English wheel? (if that is the same as a wheeling machine as I know it, a pair of crowned wheels) I posted a couple of videos, and the general discussion in the two threads by Kurgan on Bowl Tools in the 'Tools, general discussion' forum which may be useful. My little 12 tonne press copes with 12mm (1/2") steel plate dishing quite comfortably, cold without annealing... Using a male/top tool close to the final radii and corresponding female forms with one closed end to help form your concave/convex transition point, and one open gutter end...think one end of a ship or barge hull. You would be able to form the basic vessel shapes without annealing because you would not have been over-bending and then having to straighten which is where the time goes when sinking with a small hammer or male tool. Small male tools can be a real problem...so I've heard. Your refining and surfacing could then be by planishing. Essential to polish all contact surfaces of the tooling obviously...if you want to end up with a polished article. Alan

I could not work out how to quote the actual straw bale thread on the iPhone last night, herewith the links. The photos in my earlier post (#25 this thread) show the hearth flue going out through the wall beside the fan which blows air into the shop. The others show the brickwork "chimney breast" outside the shop which forms the baffled air duct. The inlet is at ground level. Sound does not carry so well either up-wind or down-hill. The Stainless Steel flue passes out of the wall and continues up vertically beyond the eaves. The flue was built first and the block work air duct was a later addition which enclosed it. There is no connection between the flue and the ventilation air apart from inside the shop obviously, when some of the ventilation air will find its way up the flue. The thread on straw building I referred to is 6 down the list on this "Building, Designing a Shop" forum and is entitled "Straw bale, anybody?" The last paragraph of my post #23 outlines the logic of the principle. This is quoted from my post #19… "I built my forge in a village and used mass for sound attenuation. The key to vibration transmission reduction is isolation of the hammer inertia blocks with an air gap from the floor and walls. Otherwise the structure is just a cubic sounding board. I used concrete block cavity walls with a 100mm (4") gap back filled with rockwool fibre insulation. The ceiling had two layers of plaster board and a acoustic wool board above with fibre cement sheets above an air gap above that. After vibration transmission comes the air born noise and the clue is in the phrase...sound can only get out if the air can. Because we blacksmiths work with furnaces and fires (my big gas furnace is outside and we carry the bars in closing the door when forging) being air tight is a bit of a problem. I use a positive pressure ventilation fan and have a skylight. Passive ridge ventilation units would have been better, my brother in law had those installed in his service garage. Sound doesn't tend to come down, (think jet engine test beds) so if you can exhaust it up a chimney your neighbours will hear it less in normal atmospheric conditions." and this from post #23... "The skylight vents the heat and its window swings open to vertical so the noise goes up. The positive pressure ventilation inlet is at ground level and comes up through a baffled (for sound) flue inside the blockwork chimney breast that is up the outside of the forge, the fan blows air into the forge and it finds its own way out through the imperfect air tightness of the building, the skylight, the hearth chimney or any open door. I set it up that way because I read that the fire brigade use a big fan which blows clean air into a building as the quickest most efficient way to clear it of smoke. If the fan runs at so many cubic metres a minute you can be sure that all of them are moving clean air in. If you suck out at the same rate you may be sucking out some clean air along with the smoke, logical really." Alan

I did not base it on any shop specific information. I just adopted and adapted the principle of the Fire Brigade's system which made sense to me. It has been in successful operation in my forge for twenty odd years. I have a speed controller on the fan so it can just tick over a clear the air fast. Have a look at the recent IFI thread about straw bale building, I described it on that. I have just been out and braved the stinging nettles to take a photo or two of the air duct / chimney breast for you. Alan

Much as you don't want change all the air in the building for heat loss reasons if it is all contaminated there is not much else you can do....however if you change the air rapidly the temperature will re-establish itself very fast as the incoming air is heated by the thermal mass of the walls floor and equipment in the room. To that end positive pressure ventilation is more efficient than extraction. It is how the Fire Brigade clear a building of smoke. Look it up if you think it may work for your circumstance. I have found it very successful from the point of ventilation and sound suppression...no air born noise carried out with the extraction. Alan

I am well informed thank you Steve and Ian. I took my own advice and have just done a Google search and the only reference to 404 I could find was an Australian company offering a "new" grade 404GP made by a Japanese mill. Properties just as Ian described containing 21% chrome and no nickel. I am glad I prefaced my post as I did. Would have been accurate if I had said the 400 series contains the higher carbon range....but hey ho, so close but no banana! Just goes to show how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. :) Alan

I am sure others will tell you who are more qualified than I, but the 400 series of stainless steels are the high carbon tool steels suitable for blades and the like. Unlike the 300 series which you can anneal by quenching, with the 400 if you quench it it will harden it. Get the data sheet and look up the spec. on the Internet for its properties. You can check whether you have 300 or 400 with a magnet. 300 series is non-magnetic. Alan

Well I certainly don't. Quite the opposite. The fastest and easiest way to gain skill and patience every time for me. :) I always learn fastest when I am working on a real project toward a finished object, rather than doing an "exercise" for the sake of it. The reason I am (and I think Timothy) intrigued by this is that we find forging (tongs) is the most efficient way. There is nothing wrong morally with using a plasma as I tried to indicate in post #8. BUT... if your interest is in blacksmithing you're cheating yourself of an opportunity to do something pleasurable in exchange for sucking in plasma fumes and using an angle grinder and or linisher. Those processes, that while they have their place, do not give me the same buzz as forging. If your interest and enthusiasm is oriented towards reductive work processes, cutting, carving, drilling and grinding then, equally pointlessly, one could say you would be cheating yourself if you pick up a hammer. You have not responded to my queries regarding the problems you had with your many failed forging attempts. Show some pics of those as well as the plasma cut ones, so we can help. Give you some pointers. Serious, important, waxing philosophical bit.... I think that forging tongs were the basis of my career as both an artist and a blacksmith. Both the practical forging lessons they afforded and the aesthetics inherent in the process of the manipulating by heat and hammer. Through them I learnt the fundamentals of using the anvil, of hammer control, of left hand control, of fire welding, of punching, of the beauty of radical changes of section. I learnt how much faster it was to achieve a form buy hot manipulation and addition rather than carving from solid. The subtleties of using a radiused anvil edge to leave a strength-giving fillet at the root of the section change. The love of simple undecorated functional forms. The pleasures of using and looking at a well balanced tool. The love of forms and surfaces which record the process of their shaping by heat and hammer. Making tongs opened my eyes to the beauty of industrial blacksmithing forms seen in ship and locomotive furniture which are derived from the efficiencies of the forging process. See Lillico. Bentiron1946's post reminds me of the my early days when I did feel there was a morality involved, I too was in the non-traditional camp, but possibly a more radical faction. I would use electric welding and deliberately leave the fillet displayed it in its own right as just another decorative bonafide jointing technique...celebrate it, not grind it flush or cover it with a collar! Happily I now allow myself to grind welds off where appropriate! Now my focus is on the end result. All the techniques and process employed are used to in an attempt to support and contribute to the spirit of the piece. Blimey, who would have thought a pair of tongs would prompt that outpouring! Alan P.S. John B posted while I was writing this, sorry I didn't resist the rant onset!

When I first starting buying stainless the cost of the material in relation to the cost of the project seemed to be less of a factor. Because I was manipulating it a lot most of the cost of the project was in my labour not the materials. I was buying to make cutlery, spoons and ladles, so I went for catering grade 316. When I started using stainless for architectural projects I kept on with 316 for a number of reasons. One; I would not muddle them up in the rack and use the wrong one. Two; I could tell the client I was using the best stain resistant version available. Three; I found it cost only about 25% more than 304 and if I was going for 300% of mild steel cost anyway that difference was not so great. I take the point about putting it through the fire, but given an equal maltreatment and finishing regime 316 will still survive more resilient than 304. :) If you are mainly doing fabrication with it, or any architectural work when the cost of the material is a high percentage of the project, 304 would be the more sensible way to go. But hey, I am a blacksmith where does sensible come into the equation? :) Alan

Not just me then? I am two out of three down with them, the diamond drill rig and the first lot of HIT resin anchors turned out to be toxic so when they brought out the new chemicals the new packaging would not work in my £75 pound applicator, so I had to buy another....I thought I just happened to buy in at the end of the production life. Both times the kit I bought was ceased a month after I bought it, the salesmen saw me coming I guess. If I had been a heavy all day user I would of had my monies worth before they ran out of spare part support. Unfortunately I bought into Hilti's robustness for longevity rather then hard full time use. Having said that I have made use of their same day site delivery service a couple of times now and it has been a life saver. I have found ebay the best place to buy in-date Hit resin from companies who bought too much for a project. Alan

Interesting reading. I have only ever used coke, first in side/back blast hearths with water cooled tuyeres (I have always heard it pronounced "twoy-err" Twoy rhyming with boy not hooey). Later in a home made dry bottom blast which is just a flat plate with two loose 50mm (2") square bars to form a nest. I have never used water to control the fire. Just heap it up where I want it with a slice. If you are using a side blast with a swans nest in front of the tuyere as per the sketch I posted on an earlier thread, you should not have a problem with the fire moving. '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>> I always heap up coke on the edges of the hearth so that it can be pre dried before it goes on the fire which reduces the spitting if you don't manage to keep your coke store dry. Alan ps I found the sketch image

My local seal and bearing place managed to find one of the correct size but it was not quite the same spec, this was three or four years ago and the spec. detail is lost from my memory bank. So I got it and then discovered the machine uses an exotic oil in the gearbox that Hilti want £80 for a litre or so. I need about 30cl and I could not find a local supply/equivalent so I have left it un reassembled for now. If I get a use coming up for it I will bite the bullet and buy the oil from Hilti and put it back together. I see them every now and then on ebay for 200-300 but you never know if they don't have the same problem. I keep getting flyers from a couple of hydraulic companies so I will give them a call when I revisit the machine and see if they can match the spec. good thinking, thank you. Alan

As far as I could see Milwaukee only sell the battery powered saw now so the mains powered version might appear on eBay. Does any body know how good the rechargeable version Milwaukee is? I have a lot of Makita kit and it has been great. I do not know what their saw is like...no reason to think it would be bad, but based on my diamond drill rig I get the feeling Milwaukee is slightly upmarket. Maybe not quite to Hilti but close. Having said that my Hilti diamond drill is the only one that died on me. The oil seal failed on it and as it is now an obsolete model, no parts...£2,000 pounds worth of shiny red aluminium. Nibbler capacity obviously depends on the size of the machine. My great nibbler beast will do 3mm (1/8") mild steel in a straight line or 2.5mm (3/32") in a tight curve I think, (maybe even 5mm and 3mm) and a bit less in stainless It is the one tool I have not used, so think carefully before you buy. I thought I would be making lots of fire hoods in sheet and have only made a couple in my entire career. The nibbler has just sat in the drawer for 40 years. It did have a brief moment of fame in the eighties when I lent it to Tony Robinson to cut out the stainless sheets for the overthrow of his magnificent Great Hall of Winchester gates...he did manage to burn out the motor though! Apart from the fact that they produce the most lethal spiky waste, second only to the splinter making carbide burrs....you are probably better off buying in profiles from a plasma, water jet or laser company who can sell the cut profiles for less than you can buy the sheet due to the quantity they get through. Alan

In the absence of the "normal" style if the option is to either learn a new way or go without your beer I bet most could bring themselves to accept change! So the first thing I will do when I become King is to confiscate all bottle openers that open from the front! Starting with the OP's because they look rather good! Alan

Thank you for your kind words! However you do realise what I said was ironic...tongue in cheek...is it possible to say something like that and mean it? :) Unfortunately most of those that know me would probably use words like dogmatic, pedantic, control freak! And all I ever really wanted to be was a laid-back hippy! Alan

Thingmaker said:- Best summary I can give is that emotions are our reactions to things. (How's that for insight?) My art tutor at college reckoned that "Art is the expression of (a) man's reaction to his environment" Which is quite close.... Saint Francis seems to have got it succinctly, I had forgotten that gem. If you just swap "When I" for "He" it speaks to my condition. Mainly to do with the activity than the person. Alan

Now now, don't turn this into a bun fight! Crumbs! that was a stale pun... Alan

Thoughtfully put. If we have to have a definition/distinction that would sum up the current notion as I understand it. So has "craft"! Think wonky pots and machine planished (dimpled) copper sheet and a few million tonnes of soulless mangled twisted gobbed together ironwork seen in a catalogue near you. Absolutely, it is subjective. Dick Quinnell (a well known blacksmith and egghead) was rather pleased with his epigram that "Craft was Art made with love". I have to disagree with that. Functional and non-functional is on a whole other level...it is all just words but you can obviously have something that has an aesthetic function! If you have two objects that function equally well, why would you use the ugly one? I was a bit lost with your first and last paragraphs but the middle ones could me speaking! Bravo! Alan

Interesting feedback that. I find that a hook from the far side is much more stable, because whether you are holding the bottle on the table or free hand you are pulling against your fingers rather than the reduced (by 60mm (2.5") leverage position of your thumb... Still, I like to think of myself as a free thinkin' free wheelin' rebel punk :) Alan

You are a bit spoilt for choice up there (spoken as someone living south of Watford you understand). Brian Russell and Steven Lunn who both do really interesting work are not a million miles from you, Little Newsham and Morpeth respectively. Peat Oberon has his forge and blacksmith's school, and is a great teacher, at the Preston Hall, Museum Stockton on Tees. I would see if you can visit them and introduce yourself. They are working so it may only be a 'ten minute hallo' (to quote Forgemaster). You can always visit Preston Hall and just watch through the window like any other visitor... Check out the BABA website for links to training and forge-in type events, some will be in your area. If you can cope with more camping, the BABA AGM is at Hereford College this year. You may pitch your tent next to mine! It would give you an opportunity to meet a good few of the (how shall I say?) more gregarious smiths and enable you to check out the College... Hereford has arguably the best blacksmithing facility for students anywhere I think, and if you want to do a full time course it would be a pretty good grounding. The College runs excellent vocational courses and the allied Hereford Art School has courses which use the same forge and the tutors if your interest takes you in that direction... Alan

Did you? I have just had another look and I will stick with welding :) I thought one leg had been tack welded before they started and there appeared to be sparks popping off around 10.20 which I read as welding heat. The tack weld fillet seen on the back leg around 10.00 looked steely rather than bronzy I thought...mind you it is 4.54am here and I have been up all night trying to get my books done so my eyes are not exactly fresh! Alan

Inspiring to see such effortless mastery. Made me laugh though at 9.50 when the voiceover says "you need to be able to electric weld" and the man is gas welding...they made the same but opposite mistake in the "Full Monty" film whilst watching a clip of Jennifer Beale arc welding and saying "she's not much of a welder...her oxygen's too high" :) Alan

Constructing the air gap depends where you start from. My 3cwt is sitting on a 12 cubic metres inertia block which is 3 or 4 times the manufacturers recommendation. 3 x 3 x 1.5 metres (10' x10' x 5'). I cast that before the floor by digging that sized hole and shuttering the top ring to bring it flush with my intended floor height. I then spaced off the shuttering for the floor leaving a 75mm (3") gap which had ledges at the top to receive a drop in cover plate. For the 50kg Reiter and the 1cwt Alldays I was not sure exactly where they were going to sit initially, so I cast the floor slab in one go at 150mm (6") thick. When I had chosen the place for the hammers, they were both mounted on inertia blocks/plates on Ø150mm (Ø6") rubber buffers, I cut through the floor slab with a diamond saw and took out a 50mm (2") strip all around them. Then I cut a ledge with a diamond blade in the angle grinder to take a 6mm (1/4") cover plate. Manfred Bredohl had a very elaborate system for his big Becher hammer. He dug a huge hole which was floored and walled I think in one continuous pour. Looked almost like a swimming pool. Then an independent block about the size of my inertia block was set on a series of coil springs inside that. There was sufficient space for a ladder and inspection walkway all around the block, plus lighting and a pumping system to get any water out if I remember correctly. If you are on an earth floor as long as the back of your block doesn't come in contact with your wall footing you should be fine. The engineer that looked at my system said that the thump would go down and out at around 45º from my block so should not worry the neighbours. I am on Cotswold Brash rather than slab rock here. Jet engine test bed? I suppose I could have said "Google" instead of "think"! The skylight vents the heat and the window swings open to vertical so the noise goes up. The positive pressure ventilation inlet is at ground level and comes up through a baffled (for sound) flue inside the blockwork chimney breast that is up the outside of the forge, the fan blows air into the forge and it finds its own way out through the imperfect air tightness of the building, the skylight, the hearth chimney or any open door. I set it up that way because I read that the fire brigade use a big fan which blows clean air into a building as the quickest most efficient way to clear it of smoke. If the fan runs at so many cubic metres a minute you can be sure that all of them are moving clean air in. If you suck out at the same rate you may be sucking out some clean air along with the smoke, logical really. I think Bill's idea for the bridge crane was to put the posts up outside the building and run the rails through the walls. The bridge/traveller could obviously only travel on the rail section that was inside the building; the rails would only have to extend through the wall and a foot or so beyond to the posts. Thank you for your kind words. As to your astute analysis of the cause of the British Empire it is hoped that the invention of Goretex, thermal underwear and central heating will have moderated the belligerent national attitude of the British and their search for warmth at the expense of others! It is probably a sign of my guilt for our history that I feel I must make amends by sharing my experiences with you ex colonial cousins! As long as you are not going to shake me warmly by the throat for the sins of my forebears you are welcome to visit, but I am afraid I don't follow the national habit of tea and only drink coffee. Alan

As Ptree (mistyped :)) my understanding is that 316 vs 316L is more to do with welding than forging. L being lower carbon. I always specify 316L when I order it, but the latest order came in with the 50mm (2") square bar being tagged 316, I queried it with the supplier and they said it is all 316L nowadays. Sure enough when I looked at the spec on the data sheets when they arrived the 316 bar I had was actually lower carbon than the 316L bars. Alan