Alan Evans

Michael, in my struggle to get anything to post today I had to rewrite it a few times...it wont let me edit it now... but the question I asked in one of the attempts was what size stock are yours for and do you have a particular project coming up to use them for? Alan

Short answer yes. I supported myself by bench work in non ferrous metalwork for four or five years after I left College while I was learning a bit of blacksmithery and acquiring tools. Most of that period I worked in silver; sad fact of life that people will pay more for your labour in silver than in brass or indeed in gold as opposed to silver. I was cold forging most of my jewellery pieces in silver as opposed to casting so when I went full time on iron, it was really just a matter of picking up bigger hammers... Alan

Mine is a non-traverse Blacker "C". I always reckon the C is more robust than the B because of the close coupled side frames and short spindles. Less loss of power through whip. And mine is especially so because it has much thicker heavier hammer shafts than any other blacker I have seen. Whether because it was an early model or it was a later owner-modification or repair I know not. Alan Knight the smith I trained with had a B and I could not really see the point in the traverse and the big anvil. It took forever to traverse. I could change the bottom plain pallet for the one with hardy hole very quickly on mine and then bottom tool changes could be made as fast as you like. I made up a wrap around top tool which clamped on the top block and presented a bit of half round (handrail section) to mimic the top cheese fuller of the Reiter type hammers. With a cheese fuller in the hardy hole it worked very efficiently. The only things you had to be aware of were to make sure you put the first blow somewhere where it would not hurt :) and that the hammer head face whilst always parallel to the anvil is on an arc rather than straight down...sort of a rolling blow. Better than a helve type but not so predictable/precise as a vertical ram. I will see if I can find some photos of it. Alan P.s. Interesting point. Did I mean I can't bring myself to get rid of it or that whatever I do it just keeps coming back? The truth probably lies somewhere in between. :)

Nice one! Or maybe that should be...Nice two! As they are a pair. :) Well they look much more useable than the 100mm and 125mm (4" and 5") hollow chops I could not resist from the old tool pile of West Midland Stamping Co. With 35mm dia. (1 3/8" dia.) parallel reins! They need the crane to lift them empty! I almost ruptured myself digging them out from behind the hammer to photograph them for you! I have used them once, but then we made some lighter long ones for one job and subsequently did an instant conversion (normal mid heat panic) for another....if I could get IFI to play nicely with mum's iPad I would try and post pictures...nope so this try from the iPhone.... What was the lovely comment about tongs from Clifton Ralph something like "they only need to be big enough to keep you on the end of them..." Alan Sent from my iPhone

Sorry not to have found your post earlier, have you located a source for graphite now? If not, and you are passing through Gloucestershire sometime I have a sackful. Search for "flake graphite" rather than powder. I can look up the mesh size I use if you need it. I am sure I have posted on here previously about sources so have a trawl back. If you have any queries about the process itself just ask, I have used it quite a few times over the years on both large and small projects. I managed to drum up a team of ten to help burnish the largest one! Alan Sent from my iPhone

Quirky action, but once you get used to it very sensitive. The first blow is always heaviest but once it is cycling you can get very precise and regular blows. Almost the opposite scenario with the air hammers `I have used, which are easier to get going but most seem to generate the odd random heavier blow in the middle of the cycle. I can't get rid of my Blacker. It was my first power hammer and I used it exclusively for a couple of years before I bought a Reiter. When I acquired an Alldays I let an ex assistant have the blacker on extended loan, and after a few years he moved on and it went to another of my friends who was also setting up, and he had it for the best part of 20 years. A couple of months ago I fetched it back with Benprothero on here, who is borrowing it until he gets the 2cwt Massey I sold him installed….who's next I wonder? My blacker and me are a bit like Mark Twain's wise words on smoking "its easy to give up...I have done it hundreds of times!" Alan

Sorry for the delay in reply, for some reason I could not get onto Iforgeiron for a few days. Well I thought it was simple, but it is proving otherwise :) interesting nonetheless…. It is intriguing that we have a not altogether dissimilar experience, but have come to different conclusions. When I left college in the early seventies I supported myself by working as a jeweller/silversmith for 5 or 6 years and although I never worked "in the trade" made frequent trips into the jewellery quarter of Birmingham taking stuff into the Assay Office and to buy tools and material supplies….I had a friend who had inherited his grandfather's chain making company and some of the brilliant home-made semi-automatic silver chain making machines he ran there were a joy to behold. Wonderfully Heath_Robinson, like Tinguely kinetic sculptures in miniature! My initial question to you was prompted by the definitive statement you made "It is a jeweller's press" which contradicted the cosy chat that the OP, NJAnvilman and myself were having around the general consensus of opinion that it was a riveting or eyeleting press. Had you prefaced your statement with "Around here we call them"… or "I think it is…" I would have read it as a contribution of information rather than as one correcting what we had already said. But... I still do not think it is a general metalworking press whether for the jewellery trade or any other. I certainly do not think it would be anything like man enough to "line bars" as you suggested. My initial question (still unanswered) to you was for a comparison with the speed of the action of your jewellers press. The size and the pitch of the drive helix which was the most obvious (to me) indicator that this was not a general metalworking press or indeed jeweller's press. The thing I have been at some labour now to get you to look at is the difference between the helix' pitch of the your jeweller's press and that of the OP's. And while you are at it compare the guide system and size of the ram… I attach this photo of my Gran's little press beside one of my Flypresses so you can get a direct comparison and hopefully see what I have been trying to get at. The Op's press is 50mm (2") taller. Every press I have seen used for metalworking has a far more robust guide system than these little presses. They have all had either a dovetail or square ram running in guides, these have just a slot in a round spindle…(at least I think I read the OP's photo correctly and it is separate from the helical drive shaft like my Gran's). In my Gran's press that ram spindle is only Ø10mm (Ø3/8") the OP's may be slightly more @ Ø12mm (Ø1/2"), whatever…they both are tiny. Which is why I spoke of concentric tools, they certainly could not provide for any side thrust or precision alignment. I am not quite sure why you preface you statement about quick acting screws with "Also" as though I have been saying something to the contrary. My view is that the term 'screw press' covers all. The speed of the action / pitch rate of the helix is what determines the power and use to which the machine can be put. The fly press, as I know it, is a type of screw press that utilises the momentum of weights or flywheel to change the type of pressure and is in order to overcome the inertia of tools like sheet metal punches. The momentum giving it a crack as opposed to a squeeze. It is a similar relationship as that between hydraulic press/powerhammer/drophammer. With their spring return and minimal mechanical advantage these little hand presses are closer to toggle or lever presses than a fly press in their power and action. I agree that the OP's press could well have been made originally for a role in the jewellery business, or any other, closing the claws on stone settings springs to mind. It could have been made for the leatherwork industry and subsequently modified for metalworking, as indeed I was going to do with my Gran's…I was going to make little Ø1.6mm (Ø1/16") punch tools but it did not feel robust/precise enough. But...going by the tooling in the OP's (which looks to me like an eyelet spreader) the line of least resistance suggests to me that that is probably nearer the mark than a "Jeweler's press" or general metalworking press. I managed to dig out the little punch I eventually made up for my jewellery work from an old cam action lead seal crimper. The punch diameter is Ø1.3mm (Ø0.05") and the mechanical advantage is around 40:1 The lever drop arm on my Grans's press is 100m (4'') from the spindle and maximum rotation is just under half a turn giving around 300m (12" ) sweep for a ram movement of 20mm (3/4") something like 15:1? The OP's press looks even faster action, 10 or 12:1? On the fly press in my photograph above I think the mechanical advantage is in the order of 60:1 The end result of the discussion that I was/am hoping for though is to get and share more information and insight into these little presses. And indeed, to take on board that it is a "jeweller's press" if you can convince me! :) I am only (slightly) sorry that you take my enthusiasm for all things mechanical as "getting worked up about it". Alan p.s. What is the saying about the perceived difference between obsession and enthusiasm? something like "One man's fanaticism is another man's interest"….any ideas Ian?

Families of squirrels have torn up the semi-permeable membrane above the acoustic insulation in both of my workshop roofs. I regularly see them skittering around between the layers of the quadruple glazed roof lights...frustrating or what! I have an annual visit by a dragon fly mid August, who must be on a genetically implanted pond to pond trip. I found a toad a couple of feet down in the side of the pit I was digging for the power hammer inertia block. I have managed to shoot a couple of Roe Bucks from the high seat leaning up against the stanchion of the new workshop. They frequently take a short cut through it (because it is lacking walls) in order to raid our vegetable patch. In those instances revenge (and the venison) tasted very sweet! Alan

The horse shoes look good but I can see they would be a pain to get the metal in and out of. Be okay I suppose if you had one shelf for each stock size, but Sod's law dictates that the bit you want is under all the others and with the curved form of the horseshoe all the bars are thrown together. With a flat rack bracket you do at least have a chance to roll the top ones away.... It is probably a size thing though, with most of the heavier stuff I have to rack/unrack from the front rather than being able to drag it out from one end... Alan

I have again learnt something new, thank you Ian! I have just looked 'obtuse' up. All these years I had thought that the non-trigonometric meaning of "obtuse" applied to the person making a badly worded or fudged description, a proactive event. Now that I see it is usually applied to the intelligence or attitude of the person receiving the description...pause...thinks....'Ere hang on a bit, you implying I'm a knucklehead? .....That would only be partially justifiable. :) Ignorance is only a lack of knowledge, nothing to be ashamed about...celebrating and rejoicing in the surety of your lack of open-mindedness is another thing! :) In my thirst for knowledge and enlightenment therefore I am trying to find out from arftist why he called the OP's press specifically a "jeweller's press"...what are the distinguishing features of such a thing as opposed to any other type of fly press so I will know for next time. Maybe it was just a throw away line and his generic name for all small presses, but in case there is something he knows and I don't, I am asking the question. Simple really...and I am not just referring to my brainpower whatever you say! :) Alan

I agree with everything you say here of course. But the tonnage is key. You have not answered my question regarding the speed of action of the OP's press and your "jeweller's press". I do not think it is a "jeweller's press" because:- The significant difference between the OP's press and any metalworking fly press I have seen is as I pointed out to you before; the speed of the action / pitch of the helix. On the OP's and my Grandmother's the drive thread or Helix is designed to move the ram over its full stroke in around a quarter of a turn of the handle. Metalwork fly presses have a much smaller pitch Helix to generate more pressure. The ram guide on mine is merely a milled-in slot and locating pin on a round spindle, and it appears the same on the OP's. It is neither robust nor precise enough to prevent any tooling to turn, which limits the use to a controlled light squeeze using concentric circular tools. Hence my question to you for a comparison with your press thread/helix. You now say little presses are not exclusive to blacksmiths, with which I obviously agree, but yet you stated originally that the OP's press was "a jeweller's press". It was precisely this exclusivity in your statement that made me query your conclusion. Why jeweller? Alan

Hi arftist, no offence taken, hence the smiley :) On the other hand your slightly defensive tone above indicates you may have. Sorry, none was intended. I am grateful that your comments prompted me to do a bit of research and learn something new! Re reading both of our posts though, I still read you being at the very least, dubious about the effectiveness of vacuum if not directly stating it would not work. I should probably have said that what stimulated my brain to work a bit harder was that you "explained why it may not work very effectively". My "confidence" description was based on the fact that you quoted facts and figures about Vacuum of which I was previously unaware and so I was acknowledging that you were more knowledgeable than I. However I did not follow your reasoning that it was a bad thing that the vacuum would "withdraw from the joints and not push in" hence my asking the two questions of you. I have just noticed a slight Déja Vu on another thread (the small press one in tool i.d.) where you have unequivocally responded firmly with an alternate proposal to mine and I have responded similarly there by asking you a question in order to test our different views… :) They all were/are genuine questions with no "side". Alan P.S. I have sent a PM.

When using a little cement mixer for the dryish refractory mix for my furnaces I found that a black plastic rubbish bag/bin liner fitted over the mixer mouth a treat and kept all the dust contained. I did have a big old open trough rumbler for a while but could not get on with it for my application. That was rubber lined and much quieter than using the cement mixer for tumbling. I did think I could spray the outside of the mixer drum with a few coats of Car body schutz which would deaden the noise well. Especially, if like me you want to able to use the mixer for its proper role as well. Alan

Somewhere half way between wet old England and desercated New Mexico there must be a geographical blacksmith's Utopia. Dry enough so that things do not go rusty in an hour and damp enough so that you still need a compressor and gun to do some sand blasting! Alan

Old steel two three or four drawer office filing cabinets hide a multitude of tools as well as sins. Their main advantage over open shelves is that they protect their contents from grinding dust. They also hold an awful lot of tools and can carry stupid amounts of weight. While still enabling relatively easy access to stuff that is used once in blue moon. Alan

I would argue against adopting the "bigger mistakes" attitude on so many levels. If it were true power hammers would not have been invented. I don't have such a snappy phrase in retort, maybe "bigger hammers, bigger profit"? and I am not just talking financial gain. Using a larger/ proper sized tool for the job can be a bit scary at first, but it is a classic mistake to think you are safe if you take a long time and many heats to make something. Or you just nibble around the edges. But by a fairly logical extension he should be heating the workpiece with a candle, or he could be certain he would not make any mistakes if he stayed in bed! If you read David Pye's excellent books he talks of workmanship of risk and workmanship of certainty. Hand forging as the workmanship of risk using a smoothing plane to finish a plank with its regulated shaving size is workmanship of certainty. You must commit to the process and take the risk of making a mistake in order to progress and develop your skills. I have always described the power hammer as a brilliant amplifier of of my energy…but also an amplifier of mistakes. But there are really good reasons for having one (or five, not boasting …just saying!) :) I agree with your last statement, but "finding" it carries the corollary to spend your life looking for a better way. Alan I guess that is the first ten minutes of a few hours discussion about it!

I have noticed similar variance between grades when under power or by hand. I have also noticed a difference between 120 grit aluminium oxide an 120 zirconium(zirconia?) even with both on angle grinder discs or both roll strip. I guess the rule about doubling the grit number progressively can be followed slavishly if you stick to one form of abrasive process, but as you have found you could jump back a grade when you go hand finishing. Nobody is going to tell you off if you find a better process to reach your end result! If they do you have my aunty's permission to ignore them! :) As to doing more finishing on the machine...every time! The guy that trained my furniture maker father said "always use the biggest tool you can get to the job" It saves so much time even if at first it is a bit scary that you will over do it. I mentioned this on another thread recently, but it stands repeating...The thing about finishing that I remember from my school metalwork teacher and have worked to ever since, "the best way to get marks out of metal is not to put them in..." Extrapolate that out to all your working practice, material handling, hammer and anvil surfaces and abrasive grades it saves a lot of clearing up after.... Alan

Yes, similar here, I normally warm first then put the oil on so as it cools the oil is pulled in. Where possible I also try and apply the oil by running it in via the bolt or stud so that shrinks first and creates nominally more of a gap between the threads. Two instances jumped to mind when Arftist explained why the vacuum idea would not work:- Unscrupulous meat processors who sell more tonnes of meat than walk into the abattoir by evacuating it and replacing the air with saline. Maybe that process is an urban myth even if the practise is not. I once warmed up a bearing housing to aid the sliding in of an Oilite bush and was dismayed to see that the housing filled with a relatively huge amount of oil. I went off to make a coffee and order a replacement for the ruined bearing but when I came back cooling and capillary attraction had sucked most of the oil back in! Phew! :) I had then been told by someone that the sintered bronze bushes are charged with oil by an evacuation process, but it might have been by a "bloke down the pub" who was just guessing…. Alan p.s. My ignorance prompted me to do a search and I have just looked at the nationalbronze.com site re machining sintered bronze and they say "Re-impregnation is recommending after machining. The bearings should be soaked in a bath of hot oil for 1 hour for thorough impregnation." and also "Oil Impregnation- The parts are impregnated with oil through a vaccum process." http://www.nationalbronze.com/pmprocess.php It is an informative site glad I found it! :)

Does your jewellers press have such a fast acting spiral? I would not have thought Rainbow's or mine powerful enough to punch much more than shim brass. Though his frame looks more workmanlike than mine his spiral is similarly very quick acting. Mine definitely was for riveting on the pop fasteners I still have some of the old 1930s stock fasteners that were with it! Alan

I don't quite follow you, but you sound very confident! :) If the item is immersed in penetrating oil and the air is removed from the joints why would the oil not be sucked in to replace it? If you pressurise the whole thing, the air in the joints is also going to be pressurised how will the oil displace it? Alan (who did history and Geography at school and not Physics and Chemistry….)

Both are just grub screw/pinchbolt I seem to remember. The top add on bit I can't remember quite what it was but the end of the plunger/ram is hollow dished so it supports the curved cap of the pop fastener. The bottom tool was double ended and had two different sized tits in the middle which spread the hollow rivet. There was a little stepped spike sticking out the face of the front tube which I think was for pre-assembling and holding the popper parts and then you pushed pre-punched leather onto it. Ah! just had another look at the photo and see that the spike was on when I took the photo, you can just about make it out. Maybe just try giving it a gentle warm up and flood some penetrating oil around it as it cools down to get it to suck in? Alan

I can only encourage you to try some graphite one day, you will find it does make a huge difference to punching any size of hole. My hydraulic press is 30 tonne two stage pump with 15 tonne at approach speed and retract. I find the graphite enables most of the punching and drifting to take place at approach speed which of course keeps the punches moving faster and therefore cooler and takes pressure off the sliding bolster so it all works more efficiently. And that is true for both larger or smaller holes and stock. The graphite means that even with only 30 tonnes we have punched-and-drifted Ø80mm (Ø 3 1/8") holes through 80mm square and slot-punched-and-drifted out 95mm (Ø3 3/4") through 100mm (4") square even managed to drift some Ø120mm (Ø4 3/4") through 80mm square for one job. Alan

Looks a bit like my Grandmother's pop fastener riveter for leatherwork. That stands about 200mm (8") high Alan

Vacuum rather than pressure sits easier with my gut reaction. But I have no experience to draw on... Vacuum pump off my diamond drill and a strong plastic / rubberbag? Fascinated to see how you progress... Alan

Intriguing the word mix up between graphite/lead/plumbago/plumbum. Tied in with graphite / lead in pencils I suppose. Talking of which I have used to excellent affect an ordinary pencil to give me an fine targeted lubrication on a steel mechanism (Bolt action lugs) Worked well. Works well if you rub a pencil on a key if you have a sticky lock as well. Alan