Buzzkill

A few questions here to narrow down possibilities... Was this new 5160 stock from a supplier or is this unknown/unverified spring steel that you are assuming is 5160? When you say annealed 3 times, did you heat it up to critical and then bury it in insulating material to let it cool very slowly for several hours or a day, or did you heat to non-magnetic and let it air cool to black heat before repeating? This first is annealing (of simple steel). The second is normalizing. What did you quench in? You talk about grain structure. That indicates breaking the steel. If you broke it so you could see the grain structure, then I'm pretty sure you hardened it - at least somewhat. In general though, many heats, especially high heats, can burn some of the carbon out of the material. For the sake of discussion if you started with 60 points of carbon (which is what 5160 has) and lost 20 points due to a lot of high heats, then you're left with 40 points of carbon (or 0.4%). That brings it down into the medium carbon steel range and it will still harden, but it may not harden well in oil and it may not skate a file any more. With a little more info we may be able to help figure out what happened.

I realize this is somewhat contradictory on the surface, BUT I did follow the plans and instructions to build the grinder intially. After using it for a while and understanding the system better I felt confident I could make some improvements for my purposes. Choosing variable speed direct drive over step pulleys is the only change I would recommend to anyone building their own grinder unless they had a good understanding of these machines to begin with (and in that case they probably wouldn't need my input ) .

Welcome to the forum. We're the support group for your new addiction. We find it best to learn to live with the addiction. As far as what you've collected so far: 1. Good. Search for threads on dressing hammers for smithing, and rebound test on your anvil to make sure it's decent quality. 2. That's a good size to start out with for a propane forge. It's probably better to abandon Youtube for this and focus on one proven design. Here's a good thread to help you understand what makes a good gas forge: https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/47439-forges-101/ 3. You might be getting a little ahead of yourself, but again it's best to pick one proven design and go with it. I used the No Weld Grinder plans personally and there are some minor changes I would make. The biggest change is I would go with a direct drive system and variable speed rather than the step pulley system, but it did work ok for the year or so I was set up that way. I also would recommend at least a 1.5 hp TEFC motor. Bigger is better. 4 & 5. At the risk of being too repetitive, pick one proven design, study it, and follow the plans for it exactly. Unless you have a thorough understanding of the way that these burners work (and I don't) it's not worth making "small" changes to the design. You'll end up with more headaches and probably a sub-par burner. Here's a couple links to get you started on that: https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/46536-burners-101/ https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/43976-t-burner-illustrated-directions/ After reading through that stuff and picking out what you plan to do feel free to ask questions about things you don't understand, but it's best if you take the time to read those for yourself first. Most of the questions we see from newcomers have been asked and answered in detail multiple times on the forum. Rather than type it all out again it's better if we point you to the right spot or have you search them out for yourself. The search function on this forum isn't great, so it's better to use your favorite web search engine and add "iforgeiron.com" to the search term.

T Burner Directions finished.pdf

Charles, Daswulf, and JHCC if you have any more of that patience to spare send some my way. I ran out a while ago.

Yes, and yes. The purpose of a quench medium is to remove heat from the steel quickly. Different alloys need different quenchants to get the most out of steel. Heated vegetable or frying oil should work fine for any alloy for which an oil quench is suitable.

Like TP said, it's better to work with the alloy that you plan to use in the long run. However, you can get a general sense of how hot steel will move when you hit it with a hammer and you got to play around with twists and tapers in addition to making some generally knife shaped objects. As long as you enjoyed yourself that's time well spent imo. Welcome to the addiction. Hang on to those two KSO's for future reference. A year from now compare them to your most recent work. You'll probably amaze yourself. I'm looking forward to seeing what else you make.

FWIW I'm going to talk to the director of the play before moving forward. If I hand anything to anyone it will be to a responsible adult. Again, handing a sword to a kid would be gross negligence. A SSO might be a little bit in the fuzzy area. I don't think you'd put handing a loaded firearm in the hands of a kid in the same category as handing the same kid a firearm shaped object which, by design, could not function the way that the weapon it imitates would function. No matter how realistic looking a "sword" might be, if it were made of paper mache, silicone, cardboard, etc. it would be difficult to convince any reasonable person that it was irresponsible as handing out a fully functional weapon. This is somewhere in between. This is where I struggle a bit. I was driving tractors in the fields before my age was in double digits. I bought my first (non-running) motorcycle at 12 and fixed it. In my mid teens I reloaded my own shotgun shells. Model rocketry was a short-lived hobby for me because it led to building my own rocket motors, which led to becoming fascinated with large booms. And yes, my parents were aware of all these activities. By the time I was in high school I had driven bulldozers, combines, articulated log skidders, dump trucks - pretty much anything that had a motor and could move that I had access to. I said all that to say this: My personal experiences at that age or earlier make it hard for me to see a couple pounds of blunt steel and wood in the hands of a teenager under adult supervision as some prohibitively dangerous event. I recognize though that I was not "normal" and that the world has changed a bit since then. We've gotten entirely too soft imho.

While I don't want this topic to get blown out of proportion, I must respectfully disagree. We're not talking about a sword here. We're talking about a SSO (sword shaped object) which was specifically designed and built to NOT be a weapon. It's not heat treated, it has no point on the tip, and the edges have not been sharpened. It would be a lousy weapon. From the beginning it was intended to be a stage prop and therefore designed for a specific, non-violent purpose. The reason they requested a steel SSO is they wanted the sound of steel on steel in the choreographed fights in a couple scenes. Therefore, it is the right tool for the task at hand. The only question for me is whether or not it's worth the risk to me if I give it to them.

SLAG, thanks much for the information and advice. I used an online generator on an attorney's site which is specific to my state, but you are correct that I'm not an attorney and am therefore probably not a good judge of how well it would hold up if needed. I can tell you that it's a couple pages long with lots of words I don't use on a daily basis and it does specify that the person signing it has legal authority to do so. Of course the option with the least risk is to not give it to them. On the other hand if we all get so paranoid about the downside of helping others that we cease to do it, that doesn't make for a good society imho. Maybe I'll sleep on it and decide in the morning. Thanks again.

Heheh. No. I rounded the tip and left it dull, but it's thinner than a dime at the edge, so it would still be fairly easy for someone goofing off to split the skin of a fellow student. I haven't been a teenager for a few decades, but I still remember some of the stupid shtuff I did then. Thanks for the tip. I wasn't sure who to ask and I didn't want to have to pay an attorney to get an answer.

My son volunteered me to make a sword (or up to 5) for the high school play. I've completed a SSO from leaf spring and am more or less ready to deliver it to the theater department. I took the good time and trouble to draw up a "Hold Harmless Agreement," but then I got to wondering if I give it as a gift and relinquish ownership of the property, does that transfer all liability to the new owners (the school) for its use or misuse? I'm not horribly worried about it, but with the lawsuit happy world we live in I'd hate to find myself on the wrong end of a suit after trying to help the school. Does anyone know how that works one way or the other? I kind of hate to require them to sign the Agreement if it's not necessary, but I sure don't want my posterior exposed on this one.

That's nothing if not repetitive - and it certainly isn't nothing. If that's representative of badgers then I agree that we don't need no stinkin' badgers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx6TBrfCW54

Thanks for the clarification. I wonder if there are any other blacksmithing forums where one can get quality grammar instruction free of charge. A fan of UHF perhaps?

Wouldn't that be badges then? Badges? Badges? We don't need no stinking badges!

Fair enough. Another thing you may notice is that stock with the decarb layer ground off is more expensive. If you're just going to stick it in a hot forge and beat it with a hammer, there's probably not a lot of value in having it ground smooth and shiny for you.

Your perception of reality doesn't make it accurate. Through the entirety of human history skills and information have always been passed on to others who then add to the knowledge and skill base. As mentioned, those who worked with iron when it became available already had metal working knowledge with non-ferrous metals. They adapted to the new metal. They did not start from ground zero and figure every little detail out for themselves. Sir Isaac Newton (arguably) was the first to introduce the world to calculus, but he did not invent the number system or the mathematical operations that were required to develop calculus. He built off of those who had come before. The idea that you are somehow "cheating" by learning from someone else who knows more than you is just silly. What is your goal here? Seriously. So far I've seen you ask a lot of questions, many of which tend to be asked only by people who have not done research and reading on their own. You have been quite resistant to those who are trying to help point you in the right direction. What exactly do you want to do and/or get out of this craft? Are you just wanting to some day hold up a sword you made yourself? Do you sincerely enjoy working with your hands and figuring out how to accomplish goals with what you have available to you? Have you heated steel and beat on it with a hammer yet?

What do you figure it costs in fuel and time to make round stock flat? The closer the stock is to your desired dimensions the less time and fuel you consume forging to final shape (usually). There might be a reason the flat stock is more in demand

How were you planning on orienting the I-beam? Flanges vertical or horizontal? Either way if you could post a pic of the completed project I'd like to see it.

FWIW there are sellers on Ebay who list assorted corian pieces in sizes that would work for scales. I haven't purchased any that way (yet), but it does look like a decent way to get a large assortment of scale material for a reasonable price.

It would appear she's not the only one in the family who has a stubborn streak. If you want to show your dedication, then take her up on the offer. Even if you think it's a mistake (and it's not), you will show her that you are willing to do whatever it takes to reach your goal. That's what dedication is. While there is something to be said for figuring everything out for yourself, it is ultimately just about where you draw the line in the sand. You are here getting advice after all. If you wanted to do it all by yourself then you should be doing everything by trial and error without advice from anyone in any form. Since you are willing to talk to strangers on the internet to help you in your quest, what's the harm in standing next to a person who, for all you know, may be a member on this forum? Would it be better to read what he writes on here rather than listen to what he has to say and watch how he does things? If you've read many posts on here then you should know that experienced smiths are constantly advising the newcomers to find someone who can instruct them at the anvil in person. In short, you should jump at the chance. Swallow your pride. Do you want to be able to brag about being self taught or do you want to produce good work in a short amount of time?

I've never bothered doing the calculations. I only run full speed for quick hogging of material. Other than that I adjust the speed so it feels right to me for the object I'm grinding, the grit of the belt, and the relative precision I'm trying to achieve. I do finish grinding on heat treated blades at a much slower speed than rough grinding prior to heat treating.

FWIW, I have a 4 inch drive wheel and can turn my motor up to a little over 4000 rpm. It's a 3600 rpm rated motor, but I can exceed that with the VFD. Even at 3600 rpm, to me that's plenty of belt speed with the 4 inch wheel. The grit of the belt has a large impact on how fast you can remove material if you have the speed and power to handle it. I think what Steve was getting at is that running a faster belt speed than the bearings or belts are rated for can cause premature and/or catastrophic failure of the components. For instance the small contact wheel attachments usually have bearings that are not rated for as high speed as the 2 inch wheels.

Having built the no weld grinder I can say that the plans do work without any welding required. Since I do have a welder I have welded some sections on it, but it was functional without the welds. I can also say that I found 1 hp to be underpowered at the fastest pulley arrangement I had on it. I'd recommend step pulleys over your speed control solution. I'm much more satisfied with the 2hp variable speed I have on it now. It costs more to go that route, but step pulleys, pillow block bearings, shaft material, and a drive belt all add up if you have to buy them retail. A 2 inch wide belt will have roughly the same drag on it at the point where you grind whether the belt is 42 or 72 inches long, so I don't think you'll find that a 1/2 hp motor will be satisfactory. If it's "geared down" to the point where the power is adequate, the belt speed will be slow and therefore so will stock removal. I used wide skateboard (longboard) wheels for the tracking adjustment and flat platen idlers for a while. They work ok, but you'll be changing out bearings more frequently than the "standard" options. I still think that's a better solution than what you proposed. For the drive wheel I started with a wooden wheel I made by gluing a couple pieces of oak 2x6 together, cutting it to rough shape, then installing it on the motor and turning it to the final shape. I'm not necessarily recommending that, but I used it for several months that way until I could buy an aluminum drive wheel. Other than not being as comfortable with a drive wheel made of wood there really isn't that much difference imho. Good luck with whatever you choose to do, but please understand that when you ask for opinions/tips, the ones you get may not line up with what you had planned.