Mikey98118

That should read "provide."

You can find excellent burner and forge building instructions on Wayneco.com. You can download a pirated PDF of Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, & Kilns. You can also get good directions for building a Freon bottle forge and the burner to run it from Ron Riel's burner pages (this is one of the optimal designs for a knife making forge). At least check out these free sources of information; they will cause you to dump most of your faulty building plans, and keep you shy of real trouble. I forgot to include Larry Zoeller Forge for instructions on building an effective coffee-can forge All this material amounts to a free education in burner and forge building. Frosty's "T" burner is probably the easiest effective burner to build. Finally, reading all this free and concentrated information from different people will proved perspective and confidence ss you see many ideas held in common by these different sources.

If you want to heat treat with a propane furnace, a ribbon burner is going to give you much more even temperatures inside the chamber than any other kind of burner...which in turn will make you temperature control far more accurate, yes?

No Catch 22 (truly hated that movie). Your worries don't apply because of radiant heat transfer with a low heat transfer material, such a high-alumina castable refractory and/or kiln shelves. The best place to employ thermal loading from thicker hot-face layers is in the forge floor, so thinly coated rigidized ceramic fiber wall and end enclosures remain practical, for the best performance. Have your cake, and eat it too.

Thermal mass; good or bad idea, and why. Historically, thermal mass was embraced for heating metals, glass, and pottery, because neither available fuels, nor available insulation (dirt) where quite up to the job at hand.; this gradually changed, as by trial and error man discovered better techniques, such as bellows to replace natural drafts near cliff faces, and coke instead of wood fuel. Ashes are far better insulation than dirt, but whether or not our ancestors ever built double wall ash lined furnaces is unknown. Certainly, the Romans used conical shaped lidded crucibles placed within fuel lined furnaces, which naturally benefited from the formation of ash to help conserve heat , as the fuel was consumed; but it's unlikely the idea was ever taken further than that. Sskipping forward to the age of iron (nineteenth century) Fan-blown brick lined furnaces heated massive amounts of cast iron, and the idea of thermal mass became popular; this was partly due to poor available choices for insulation, compared to what is available today, and partly too the sheer volume of high melting temperature alloy desired for industrial purposes; ditto for glass. Along comes the twentieth century, and with it hotter fuel gases. Also cheaper hot-face refractories and metal shell materials make asbestos insulation practical; yet thermal mass remains a popular idea, because for most of the twentieth century low tech (cheap) construction and high overhead (fuel costs) trumped common sense every time as a business model; every rising fuel costs overturned this idea during the second half of that century. Then comes the space race with its technological spin offs; also, during the fifties propane replaced natural gas as the fuel of choice. Industrial refractories in general have been rapidly evolving since the end of the nineteenth century, so should we revisit thermal mass loading as a practical necessity, or even a relevant idea in the materials age? Well, first we need to ask the question "have our choices for thermal mass loading materials stood still while every other refractory product moved on? The answer is a resounding NO! In fact the material of choice, started replacing hard firebricks about a century ago, and has been improved on every since then; it is high alumina refractory, available as castable, hard brick, and kiln shelving. So, what is the difference between hard refractory brick and high alumina products for thermal loading? typical hard refractory brick mostly consists of clay, which has very little resistance to heat transfer; high alumina products have up to seven times the resistance to heat transfer. There we go with that phase "up to" again! But in this case the use is legitimate, rather than double talk; the difference being found in the purity of the product involved. high alumina kiln shelves are a full seven times more resistant to heat transfer than clay based products. 85% pure alumina refractories are going to be closer to six times more resistant to heat transfer, which is still quite respectable. Finally, radiant heat transfer within a forge or furnace depends on resistance to heat transfer away from the hot-face and through your thermal mass; using both ideas working together trumps thermal loading alone.

All these guys are right, but you need to hear what they are actually saying. "You'll "be jumping in at the deep end of the pool without first learning to swim" doesn't mean you'll sink and drown; it means you'll have to struggle. The most important factor isn't how steep the climb, but how interested you are in getting to the mountain top. How interested you really are in the subject that will determine whether or not you'll master it, which is why common sense barely effects the amount of success that out of your decisions. It is important that you don't happy talk yourself about how much you want to succeed, though, because absent a driving interest, all the common sense in the world won't help you...

One of the open questions he answered with this build is that ribbon burners are practical on smaller forges; I was certain they'd be great for larger structures like day tanks and glory holes, but my interest is small equipment; and since his burner looked kind of large for the forge, it is probable that ribbon burners have an excellent turn-down range. It's been a great week for learning things (way more fun then teaching things). Frosty, You probably already have a compressor in your shop. Since one of the requirements for the fan on ribbon burners is more air pressure than is provided by most fans, a guy looking for low cost performance might consider employing a compressor for the air source, at least while hunting for a bargain fan?

One of the particulars I like about ribbon burners is that they are recommended for use with ceramic fiber packing between the burner head and its opening in the forge wall. Every other ceramic burner head I've read about requires a 1/4" or larger gap between the burner head and forge wall opening; a gap that allows in a ruinous amount of secondary air. Uncontrolled secondary air will lower efficiency about 20%; How can this be? Because, unlike the exhaust opening(s), which can't draw in ambient air so long as a running burner's flame provides increased internal pressure, but any opening around a burner head will induce outside air into the forge. This is called a "vaulted" forge? Never heard that term before, but it sounds like a good one.

I especially like the way you extended the floor, so that a brick "door" would sit on it; nice detail there.

Frosty, Actually the DOT does have authority to make the other rules on propane cylinder use; not just about its transport. But, DOT requirements are backed up by other government agencies, under federal and local fire codes; the local fire codes are almost universally taken from national codes these days, so that local authorities can cover their sixes, by "compliance to higher authority." It is sad, but also necessary. Why are federal and local authorities so picky about propane? Because of all those thin walled low pressure cylinders, their pressure release valves, and the safety complications posed by a heavier than air fuel gas.

As to "the burners working completely different outside the forge": That difference is due to back pressure generated within the equipment, which is only going to aggravate his problem; not solve it.

Frosty's advice is golden, and I will just add a few of details to it. Since you're working on a limited budget: (1) The more homemade materials you use the better off you'll be, so long as you pay close attention not to use them as primary insulation, nor as hot-face surfaces (with the exception of kiln wash). (2) Using Perlite from the garden section of your local large hardware store, mixed with sodium silicate or rigidizer poured through the Perlite between stove pipe and whatever you choose for a removable i,inner form, create a rigid low cost outer insulating layer. There is a good video on YouTube of a small forge packed with a homemade mixture Perlite and a good "glue" that is perfect for this outer insulation layer ONLY: after packing this very practical and strong secondary insulating layer in place, and heat curing it with the burner flame, use the ceramic blanket for the inner insulating layer. (3) Before brushing on the kiln wash sealing coat, soak the ceramic fiber layer(s) in rigidizer (fumed silica in water; use a spritzer to apply, a day to dry, and then slowly and periodically apply flame heat until the fiber is quite rigid and all steam is exhausted). (4) After doing some research on this site for the preferred kiln washes, coat your chosen mixture over the whole interior; both rigidized ceramic blanket and high alumina kiln shelf floor.

Schedule forty pipe is just fine for the burner opening tube, but 1-1/4" would be the best size, so as to give enough room so that the 3/4" burner can be aimed, and also cooled by limited secondary air flowing by the burner's mixing tube.

Some of you may consider this little detail as "off topic," but it's not: NONE OF THE SHORT GAS LINES IS LEGAL TO USE ON THIS KIND OF HEATING EQUIPMENT by itself!!! Department Of Transportation safety rules, which apply to all propane cylinders over four pounds (in other words anything larger than disposable canisters), with the single exception of use with approved--not homemade--barbecues (which are grandfathered in...thus far) are required to be separated from hot work or any other ignition source by a minimum of twenty feet or physical barrier. Furthermore, propane cylinders are required to be stored and used outdoors, on a concrete pad, which also means employing either a long fuel hose, or piping through a shop wall, with shorter hoses (about eight feet is practical) at the cylinder end, and at the equipment end of the run of pipe, with rapid shutoff valves (ball valves). You will not get approval from your local Fire Marshal for any heating equipment that breaks these national fire codes, which are LAW; and in case of a fire, your insurance company can leave you swinging in the breeze. So, if this is true, why are all these short hoses made and sold? Refer back to "grandfathered in" barbecues. All those cart mounted oxy/fuel torch sets you see being used in shops, are being run illegally. The cart mounted torch systems are an exception to D.O.T. rules for field work only; not shop work. Otherwise, the fuel and oxygen cylinders are even supposed to be separated from each other by twenty feet or approved physical barrier (ex. concrete bunker systems); this is the reason standard torch hoses are sold in twenty foot lengths. The cylinder cart is supposed to be kept twenty feet away from the hot work! These rules are pretty much ignored with torch sets all over the country, BUT, are most assuredly not ignored with thin walled low pressure propane cylinders.

J, I think Thomas won that one Did you ever wonder why it's called the Left Coast? You see there are two Californias; no, not the Northern and Southern parts But, the coast, where "the living is easy" and consciences are bruised, and all the rest of the state where people sweat out their livings in the real world. To be fair, plenty of people sweat out their livings on the coast, too...but who cares what the non-empowered think?

I'm not going to scold you about changing the burner details, but I did notice a couple of things while viewing your video. To begin with, the burner is barely running; that huffing sound is from the flame trying to burn back up the mixing tube, and then recovering as more gas comes down the mixing tube into the flame nozzle, just in time to prevent that. Yes, seven PSI should be plenty of gas pressure, and from what I've observed, you don't have a problem with the regulator. BUT, if you look away from the flame nozzle, and take a good look at the reducer area, you will notice a slightly discolored ripple of gas OUT OF THE side intake. No doubt it was invisible to your naked eye, but your camera caught it. That is where most of your gas is going--it is exiting out of your air entrance. All you have to do to check this out for yourself is to ignite this area, but have a bit of metal ready to to quickly place over that side opening, becuase it is going to be shooting large yellow flames quite a ways out the opening, which wont stop unless you shut off the gas, or smother them by covering the opening. Afterward, remove the choke, because that is almost certain to be causing this problem.

norrin_radd, Thank you, And I will mention the YouTube; video. I've already figured out a practical method for building larger oval forges, but for small oval forges, I don't think your idea can be beat; in fact I don't believe any other method will ever come close to it for practical good sense!

Not quite all; you need to use socket head screws to keep the flame nozzle in place on the burner; otherwise it would slide right off of it. If you really want to know what goes where, and why, get a copy of Gas Burners for Forges, furnaces, & Lllns from Amazon.com, or download a pirated PDF version of this book from the net.

My preferred method for suspending a high alumina kiln shelf, is by cutting an 1/8" oversize slot at either end of a cylinder for the kiln shelf to protrude through. With sufficient ceramic fiber used as a pillow under it, the unheated fiber pillow, will act as a spring, holding the kiln shelf in place; even after the ceramic fiber "takes a set" this pillow will help hold the shelf in place. For those who like a hinged opening on one end of their forge, the shelf can be cut just long enough to fit snug within the shell, and wide enough for the circular wall to keep it from being pushed too low in the forge;

They do; masonry discs just last longer in ceramics, because they don't heat up as much in very hard materials. Peaple should remember to wear a two string dust mask, if they don't have a respirator. I'm assuming that you will be using a homemade kiln wash over over rigidized ceramic fiber, instead of the Kast-O-lite 30 refractory. I've not made up my own mind yet, as to which path is "best"; it is probably a matter of preference as to whether resistance to heat, or superior blocking of heat transfer is most important to the building. Bouncing ideas back and forth with Frosty has shown me that my own building preferences are not necessarily clear winners over his (sometimes inconvenient) common sense About rigidizer: A few years ago most rigidizer was made with fumed silica; only one product was available, which wasn't; it was a very thin ceramic slurry. Fumed silica dissolves and stays suspended in water (being colloidal). Use food coloring to suit; this allows you to easily distinguish how deeply your rigidizer is penetrating the ceramic fiber blanket or board, and completely burns out during heat curing. Force dry the soaked fiber with the wife's hair dryer, before applying low flame, intermittently, until no more steam leaves the hardened fiber, and all coloring is gone. then turn the flame up on full for a few minutes to make sure the silica melts, locking the individual fibers in position. Most commercial versions of rigidizer are mixed thirty to forty percent by volume in water, but any amount that leaves the finished product thin enough to squirt through a spritzer is fine. If you use too little fumed silica, you will be able to tell that after the ceramic fiber is flame cured (melted in position), and can add more fumed silica to your mixture; then repeat the process. If you add too much fumed silica, your rigidizer won't pass through the spritzer's valve; jut add more water. It is natural to wonder how much rigidizer will degrade a ceramic fiber product's ability to insulate. The answer is barely at all. At present, eBay has the best deals on fumed silica. Unless you live in an area with very hard water (high mineral content), using distilled water is probably a waste of money.

Well, gasoline and kerosene blow torches are still made (with steel heads nowadays), and the new ones, are just as safe as ever; on the other hand they are quite dangerous if mishandled, just as they always were. The main difference between a casting furnace and most forges is position. Casting furnaces are all vertically positioned; most forges are horizontal. People can look up successful motor oil casting furnaces on Backyard metal casting; none I've seen there must be left in the vertical position. HOWEVER, none of these furnaces burn clean, and none of them are used indoors. There is nothing cheap about burning kerosene or diesel fuel. The push behind homemade oil burning systems is so-called "free" oil, despite all its complications--including all the additives in used motor oil.

I think two five gallon cylinders should have at least one-third more surface area than one ten gallon tank; another good reason for ganging two or more five gallon tanks together. "Schlepping small propane cylinders tied upright in a partially open (but properly secured in position) trunk is legal; schlepping them in the back seat isn't.

Also, kiln shelf can be supported on 1/8" oversize slits in front and rear shell faces. The brick, poured castable refractory, or high alumina kiln shelf is the part you burner flame is usually meant to impinge; therefor the forge floor is the only area which must be highly temperature resistant; at least to begin with. Most people use rigidized ceramic fiber, with a kiln wash finish coat everywhere else; all these products are available at the local pottery supply store.

A miniature forge can always be employed as a learning experience, and unlike oversize forges will find at least occasional use; ditto for brick pile forges, which can start small and grow as large over time as you need.

JHCC, That should have read "thin" not "thigh."