Mikey98118

Also, all castable hot-face liners are NOT the same. Kast-0-lite 3000 is an extra tough semi-insulating refractory (almost as insulating as 2600 degree refractory). No ordinary hard refractory is anywhere near as protective for secondary insulation layers as Kast-0-lite 3000; it is also very convenient to work with, being both tougher and softer before heat curing than other high heat castable refractories, which is very convenient when you're trying to level the edges of poured layers for flame tight seams. Charles, You must have belonged to ABANA's news group Theforge, way back when. I didn't expect to have my alter ego outed that fast...outside of a casting group

G.G. My advice to you is to build two forges; a tunnel forge, and a brick pile forge. The tunnel forge should probably be made from a two-gallon Freon cylinder, although most people use a five gallon propane cylinder to overbuild an all-to-large version, instead; unless you are building parts professionally, this is too much tool for the job. Most scroll-work done by professionals is heated twice (in the five-0gallon forge). The first heat allows flattening and curling of the scroll end. The second heat allows this form to be fit into a scroll pan, and a four to six inch inner scroll to be formed; at this point the outer scroll arch can be cold bent around another form, or for very thick bar stock, the scroll is reheated in a brick pile forge and hot bent around a secondary scroll pan. And yes, this is the "voice of experience" speaking with you.

Frosty, Dr. Frankenburner, designer of Formula One heating equipment totally agrees with your viewpoint; there ain't no sucha thing as the PERFECT burner or the PERFECT forge, casting furnace, pottery kiln, etc. Ive been at this for sixteen years and still think up improvements for equipment I just finished constructing However, there is also the opposite extreme; namely mistaking just any ol thing we slap together for "good enough." My advice to the average Joe or Jane is "learn all you can first, and avoid all extremes.

Well, as to fuels; one big difference is how clean burning do you want your forge? How clean do the want the air you're breathing to be? Ordinarily, I'd go along with the general advise on building your blacksmith skills before tackling advanced work, like blade smithing. But, the fact is that there are many excellent books on the subject, and online groups to consult; also, blade smithing calls for so many other skills than forging, that like ornamental iron, auto body work, and various other specialties, you could do as well by just jumping in and getting your feet wet; you will have a few more failures, but will have a much shorter learing curves overall.

Actually the front flame is a perfect example of a high speed neutral burning flame, while the back flame is a slightly reducing flame. However, barbecue these flames come so close to to the work area, the neutral flame is likely to cause scaling, while the reducing flame won't. That would be "because" not." barbecue."

Excellent summation, Charlotte: To not using Harbor Freight regulators, I would add, not to use Mr Heater regulators, and cheap no brand name regulators. the price difference between the worst and best regulators is between $10 and $20, depending on size; talk about false economy! Also, I recommend regulators designed for LPG over standard torch regulators, because LPG regulators are more resistant to "freezing up" under wet winter conditions.

CAE, It seems to me that you have both good friends and good luck. Yes, you need both rigidizer and finish coatings. rigidizer is especially important for you because you won't be able to make single cut parts, and fit them against a curved wall under compression. So, if you want your insulation to last it must be completely rigidized. On the other hand, between using 2600 F insulation and rigidizer, you will toughen the secondary (inslulating) layer in your forges enough so that it should stand up well to the heat that will leak past the high emissive coating (AKA IR reflector) and thin hot-face layer (typically Kast-O-lite 3000): (A) You don't want to use thick layers; instead of a single 2" thick layer, place the insulation in two 1" thick layers. Ceramic fiber blanket will easily part into thinner layers via delamination between layers. (B) Rigidize each layer after installation, and heat cure it, before installing the next layer. (C) Form the burner openings before rigidizing each layer. For more specifics ask Frosty or one of the other members who use tapered openings or flame nozzles on/with their burners; I use step nozzles,and so can't properly advise you on this subject. But, remember to leave them just a little oversize so that they can be finish oated with a hot-face layer. (D) Rigidizer is just fumed silica (which remains suspended in water) and common everyday food coloring (to allow you to visually judge how much to use); this water born product is easiest to dispense by spritzing. But, you can always pay though the nose for it from a pottery supply if you prefer

If you're going to rigidize the ceramic fiber, forget the inconel studs. they are a complete waste of time and money, in return for nothing but creating a bunch of heat sinks, with which to siphon off internal heat. I don't think you'll be very happy with a ribbon burner operating in such a confined space.

Okay, once we avoid the extremes, "better off" starts becoming a very flexible concept. Generally (if you know what You're doing) a thicker hot-face is stronger and therefore better lasting than a thinner one, but at the cost of fuel efficiency. Thinner hot-face layers transfer more heat to the secondary layer of insulation, and if that secondary layer isn't capable of handling the higher heat transfer, it won't last long. BUT: How much heat the tot-face receives at a time is up to the operator. Let me make this very clear; how much heat that each and every layer your forge has to manage depends on how far you turn up the f-l-a-m-e in your equipment; obvious isn't it? Or, is it? How many times have I seen overlarge heating chambers putting out white heat, while someone pounds on a small part? Nobody works steel at white heat so what is the point of all this...waste. Maybe the guy isn't aware of it, but waste is what he is producing. Wasted fuel, along with wasted wear and tear on the equipment. When I started designing burners the "more is better" debate was going on; then it was in the form of naturally aspirated versus fan-blown burners: "which is hotter, which is hotter?" We hardly ever heard anyone asking which can waste more fuel, did we? As I worked to build ever hotter burners, I also worked to build them ever smaller. Way back when, hotter burners mattered hugely, because most of the designs around were marginal; they had to struggle to do the job, right? WRONG; burners then only had to struggle if they or the equipment they powered weren't built right, and tuned right. So, what all this means to you is, you want to consider how hot and how often you're going to work steel. Maybe a thin coat of zirconium rich refractory over ceramic fiber makes great sense for what you want to accomplish, and maybe a 1" thick kast-O-lite 3000 hot-face layer over a secondary layer of 2600 simi-insulting castable is the ticket for you. Or one of may options somewhere in between. What then is the biggest difference between these two extremes? Aboout ten extra minutes heating time...

/A hot-face layer 2" thick?!? You might as well use hard firebrick; it's going to end up as a heat sink!

Excellent; both views were aired, and the readers can make an informed decision. Nobody gets out of this deal alive, anyway Now, we needs to get back to chasing after the subject at hand...

Frosty, Tacoma's aroma is long gone, along with the pulp mills, and Boeing Surplus was closed many years back. the shipyards are history,, and there isn't a single scrap yard left here; I might as well be living in Southern Cal., now...

I like these Devil Forge guys; the more I see of their stuff, the more their dollar value becomes obvious. Just one one issue for me is the regulator and hose. For every quality regulator on the market there must be a hundred "also-rans." If you don''t like something about a steel part on your burner that is simple enough to change; ditto for the forge shell. But you want an American-built regulator, because this is where you live; not Yugoslavia. You want the manufacturer of your equipment to have a healthy fear of lawsuits on a part like your regulator or your fuel hose. Be smart, and stick your burners into an american fuel hose, which is hooked up to an American regulator!!!

Yeah: I looked it up, and It does sound down right formidable; trying to get it locally in tube or pipe form doesn't look easy, though...Guess I'll try through McMaster-Carr; love those people when my tail's caught in a crack...

My excuse was that my garage is unheated most of the time, and I hate seeing a rusty piece of equipment, but the truth is, they're just pretty, and " I've always wanted a sparkly of my very own." I've never used #310 SS. What's the advantage?

Maddog states: "These days I make my burner ends out of Mizzou. The 3/4" nipple sits back about 3" from the opening into the forge. I still use SS because I have it but I don't think it matters much." Now, here's a subject I'd like to hear a lot more on. Could you go into detail a little more?

Two years; even two years part time is doing well for stainless steel. Also how long flame nozzles last depends on what series you use; #316 outlasts $304 by about one-third; the really variable factor comes from the operator; do you love your equipment like a pet and baby it? Or are you rock and rolling with it? My buddy Dan typically burns through a flame nozzle in six months part time; I've never burned through one of them. Probably, cast iron lasts best, and for most burners I would recommend Frosty's installation as the most practical option for multiple reasons I routinely build burners completely from stainless steel, and simply do it for show. The only place SS is needed is on the flame nozzle, and even there we are talking preference; not necessity.

Frosty, What you brought up here is interesting. I've had strong hints from others local to my area (Puget Sound) that among other dissatisfaction with ITC-100, at least some local dealers were "cutting" the formula with their own additives. That isn't something that is easy to control, and I don't wish to waste personal time playing policeman, but it's something to keep in mind...

Ianinsa, It's amazing how similar our views are. brand names stopped impressing me clear back in the early sixties, when Ford and Chevy started embossing their logos in ever larger letters on pickup tail gaits, and Levies jeans went from using a tiny brand on a bit of leather to sowing their name over the right rear pocket, to look like a brand on the wearer's ass! But everything was quite straight forward back then, and it's the same today; either you take the time and effort to find out whats what, or you listen to someone else who does; all others get to pay the ignorance tax.

Why, Because it's "a sow's ear" that you are hoping to turn into a silk purse. I can talk you through rebuilding it into a properly working burner, but by the time you get there, you could have built another burner from scratch. If you add the MIG tip changes to the old Reil burner you would have a better burner than that one. The "T" burner is a better burner than that one. Zoeller's modified side-arm burner is better than that one.The fifty dollar cheap Revel's Forge burner is a better burner than that one, and it's bottom of the line. I just loved Reagan, "the great communicator" in his role as president; he was the best "happy talker" to ever come down the pike. In politics this is useful, but living by it is a disaster. It doesn't thrill me to cut across all these other guys and shout "hey, the Emperor's got no clothes!" At the end of the day, all happy talking yourself will do is leave you empty handed; well not empty handed, 'cause you'll still have abut $26 dollars worth of regulator. That Devil's Forge

Stan, My reply was put that way, to point out the problem with "he man" thinking, which I practiced for more than forty years. We don't let little things bother us, but shrug them off 'cause we're hard men. A little here and a little there...until one day we are old and find out that all that little here and there didn't get shrugged off after all; the damage was collecting steadily all that time, and the bill has come do...yikes!

See if you can send it back, and recover your money.

Stan, This is the age old divide between safety first and "aw shucks; I do this every day." Believe it or not, I can appreciate your viewpoint. However, nobody warned me, and I learned this lesson the hard way. I wrote that lyric after getting back up out of my sick bed...

I've heard that working on Freon tanks can make you sick? "When grinding wheels touch steel these days, your work is quickly past Unlike the tools of yesterday, their wheels turn very fast And when they cut, inside your tank the steel is turning red Which means it's more than hot enough to make a nasty gas Breath not one whiff, or you may find yourself quite sick, in bed" Traces of fluorocarbons can remain in old cylinders. Wash them out with soap and water before doing any kind of hot work on them, including abrasive cutting. Unscrew the main valve assembly, and feed a water/detergent mix through a funnel; let set a few days and pour out the mess. Make your layout and cut away the same end opening, with more water in the cylinder, to insulate any trace of gas impregnated oil left, from hot sparks. Now, you can visually inspect the other end, instead of just crossing your fingers and hoping to be lucky. My book doesn't cover building forges from Freon tanks; only from the much larger five gallon propane cylinders. I would suggest that you follow the advice of Ron Riel given on his posted Burner Pages, With one change: extend the kiln shelf beyond the forge shell's ends, instead of playing around with his complex internal support structure. In order to make this scheme work the notches that hold the the kiln shelf must be cut 1/8" larger than the kiln shelf all the way around it

He has done a great job on the burner, but needs to add a flat washer to it, thus sealing the burner port against secondary air induction. He also needs to put a brick wall a little way from the forge's front edge to keep all the radiant energy in the forge from leaving with the exhaust gases.