Dustin Quade Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Just found this great article xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx which outlines the three key terms Heat Treat, Temper and Anneal. These terms are often used incorrectly and this can lead to some people not understanding what somone is talking about. Commercial link removed Perhaps they could read the pinned article that already covered this, rather than send people off site for wrong information? the blog referenced is incorrect. Please check facts before posting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Not to be mean but I HAVE to ask why you didn't just read the heat treating section here on Iforge? Seriously, the subject line of that BLOG entry shows the author doesn't understand what s/he's talking about. This is another perfect example of why Blogs are such a lousy, crummy, poor place to learn much of anything. It's like calling the chatter at a cocktail party a college course. FYI: Annealing IS heat treating. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 yah; I wandered over to the bookcases and drug out the ASM Metals Handbook Desk Edition and at least they consider "Heat Treat" to refer to all the various processes used to thermally change the properties of steel and say so at great length in amazingly turgid prose! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin Quade Posted April 28, 2016 Author Share Posted April 28, 2016 Sorry, didnt realise i couldnt post stuff from their website as it got all blocked out you can just delete this topic, it is needless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 37 minutes ago, Dustin Quade said: Sorry, didnt realise i couldnt post stuff from their website as it got all blocked out you can just delete this topic, it is needless. Oh don't sweat it Dustin we all post something we shouldn't now and then, Ive been here a few years and still do on occasion. I'm just an old fart who hangs out here trying to spread some of the stuff I picked up around and I can sound crankier than I really am. I certainly don't want to stop folk from trying to help I'm just trying to up the quality by encouraging a little digging before you post things. There is a lot of good info in the blogs, youtube and FB but without having some knowledge and experience how do you gauge an opinion? Seriously most of what you see is opinion rather than tested and vetted fact. You're going to run into the very same thing here too, lots of urban myth gets posted as the latest discovery of THE secret to doing . . . Whatever. The major difference be Iforge and most of the other social media sites I mentioned is here there are old farts who call out the mythology and offer better info. If we're feeling mean we'll just aim you at things to research. I consider a book I have to go to the dictionary several times per page as GOOD reading. something that makes you look things up is research the internet has pretty well devolved research, anybody can upload anything. Wiki is a perfect example even if it's starting to have to vet info it's still loaded with bs. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Part of the problem is we can not correct off site information, and they do not pay us to send them traffic. Also posting incorrect information does not help anyone. If you dont know enough about the subject to know what is right or wrong, then perhaps there is another reason to read rather than share . We already have some heat treating information posted here. As it is; the link you shared has been removed to lesson the damage of sharing incorrect information, and the name of the company that failed to research this, has not had their name drug threw the mud too badly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 The internet is full of misinformation. IForgeIron self corrects any misinformation usually in the next post or two. You can not do that with off site links. Information posted on IForgeIron is subject based, each subject in a different thread so you can concentrate on only one thing at a time. Much easier that way. Do not worry about your original post, it self corrected already. (grin) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 I get a lot of folks using the internet for their research and often coming up with bogus info; as I tell them: "Give me an hour and I'll have a web page up that claims that they are the lovechild of Elvis Presley and Margret Thatcher!" What cause trouble is when people who don't know enough to recognize if a website is providing good info start recommending it to others---the blind leading the blind scenario. Recently we've had a number of people trying to build forges using plaster of paris and sand as the refractory because someone on the internet did it that way. They lobby strongly for a position that is just plain idiotic often telling us that they have to use it because of financial reasons which is totally backwards as it it much more expensive to run than just building one right. Some of us started on our own back pre-internet days; some pre ABANA days; it often was hard to get any information and we bear the scars (literal and well as metaphorical) of learning everything the hard way and so are confused by people refusing to do things the easy way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 Well said Thomas. I don't hold being self taught up as something particularly good it's a lot of struggle if you don't have to. Doing it the hard way just because isn't admirable. It wasn't till well after the internet went public, schools, airlines, followed wrecking yards in employing the internet after the gvt. came up with the idea to decentralize records, information and communications during the cold war. I think it was early or mid 80s I was finally able to log on with a HotRod, 94k dialup. In 2hrs. it paid for itself with the information I was able to download. Hasn't been the same since it's gone to marketing over data but that's another gripe. It was also easier to handle spammers when you could attach HUGE files without having to download them on my comp and they couldn't open their email software without it downloading whatever you attached as a live link from the Library of Congress. The entire encyclopedia was better than sending them 2 copies of War and Peace. They'd have to have their ISP clean their inbox for them and gee whiz actually take note of all the complaints about spam. The internet "expert" in the great majority is someone with a camera and connection as their ONLY qualifications. There are a few often cited sites that are almost pure horse hockey. One is the King of Whatever guy. He has a talent for making things "work" but I've yet to see him do anything properly or safely. Boy oh BOY do people who don't know any better copy and cite him as an expert. I'm just wondering when this guy or one of the others will set legal precedence by being sued into the poor house or even serving time for some of the really stupidly dangerous stuff they claim as "how it's done." It's normal to want to share discoveries, it's a hard wired human instinct and it goes against human nature to just listen instead of speak up. Probably one of the worst mistakes being made by the edu system, society in general is over protecting people. Kids need vacant lots loaded with junk to play in, take things apart, put them together and such. Worse than no more shop classes, nobody is teaching kids how to figure things out, I graduated HS in '70 and stopped going to college in late '71 as an exercise in futility. In about 13 years of schooling I never once had so much as a lecture about logic. How CAN you teach yourself something if you don't understand simple logic? If B follows A, cause and effect is alien to one's thinking processes how in the world is a person to figure out why something didn't work as planned. Heck can't even plan a thing without using basic logic. This site is our attempt to pass on knowledge and sometimes actually teach folk a thing or two. Nobody can actually TEACH anybody anything unless pain and reward methods are used, "Stick quiz" works. It's on the student's shoulders to learn, all we can do is present our knowledge, experience and conclusions based on what we see and hear. If, IF folk listen. The hard evidence shows without doubt folk do NOT read the stickies or heavens forbid any of the thousands of pages of outstandingly valuable information organized for research provided by Iforge. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 I get my eldest grandson visiting this summer. I'm already working on a collection of tools for him to use at will while he is down here. I will probably restrict the use of fire till when I will be around as we are in extreme fire danger season. He'll be going into first grade soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said: I get my eldest grandson visiting this summer. I'm already working on a collection of tools for him to use at will while he is down here. I will probably restrict the use of fire till when I will be around as we are in extreme fire danger season. He'll be going into first grade soon... Cool, got places he can dig holes? Going to show him where the snakes like to hide of course. Do you think you can convince him NOT to try catching snakes and scorpions? Dad gave up and showed me how, Mother told me she'd give me a beating when I got out of the hospital. She said that a lot, I wonder why? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 Funny I was thinking an introduction to black widows was in order---his mother once found 47 of them walking around the outside of the house. Scorpions, lizards, centipedes, millipedes, we haven't seen many rattlers at our house in Socorro; unlike down here. Grandma says he's not old enough to go to the arroyo by himself yet so I expect I'll get to take him when I'm around. I have a backpack for him to fill with interesting rocks already. I've got about 50 pounds of bent 20p nails he can experiment with and some 4x4" steel stock for anvils if he wants to straighten any. Eggbeater drill, scrapwood....I need to rig up another bowsaw as a hacksaw using bandsaw blade and he can cut wood as well as metal with it. I can dig out some of the tools his mother used to use... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 I forget about Black Widows, the only poisonous spiders we have to watch out for come in with freight, produce at the local megamart mostly. Sounds like you have it pretty well in hand alright. Have anything for him to take apart, lots of nuts, bolts and screws with rewarding stuff to find inside? I kept telling Dad if he'd just given me things it was alright to take apart I wouldn't have taken apart so much "good" stuff. It's not like I ever got the machine lathe all the way apart you now. He never bought it but I say it's so! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 I pass this heat treatment definition along until I'm corrected or find a more succinct, better one. Heat treatment is the controlled heating and cooling of a metal in order to change its properties. Forging is controlled heating and cooling but is not considered a heat treatment by metallurgists, probably because of the "plastic deformation" involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorō Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 http://www.iforgeiron.com/index2.html/blueprints/original-series/bp0078-the-metallurgy-of-heat-treating-for-blacksmiths-r306/ Cant see the link you posted Dustin, but I found this blueprint about heat treating on IFI pretty informative Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Your IFI link doesn't open to the BP...it just loops back to the list of BP's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Scroll down. It's there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 BP0078 The Metallurgy of Heat Treating for Blacksmiths By Quenchcrack (edited) March 10, 2007 IForgeIron Blueprints Copyright 2002 - 2007 IFORGEIRON, All rights reserved. BP0078 The Metallurgy of Heat Treating for Blacksmiths by Quenchcrack Robert Nichols It is not the purpose of this article to present the most highly technical aspects of metallurgy. However, some of the concepts will be new to you and may look rather intimidating. Don't worry about what it looks like, read it several times if necessary. Other metallurgists will note that some topics have been greatly simplified in an effort to illustrate certain basic principles. The purpose is to present some of the basics of ferrous metallurgy that will give the Blacksmith some insight into what is happening on a microstructural level during normal smithing processes. It is hoped that this will aid him or her in utilizing enough theory to avoid some trial-and-error disasters. It is not the intent of the author to impress you with big words, complex theory, or difficult concepts. However, metallurgy is a difficult and inexact science. The terms used are universally accepted and if you learn them, you will understand what others are trying to explain when discussing heat treating and metallurgy. Before we discuss the theory, we need to define some terms that are used to describe the characteristics of the metals we work with. Iron: Atomic No. 26 on the periodic chart. Comprises much of the earth�s core and is present almost everywhere on the earth as an oxide (iron combined with oxygen, as in rust). Alloy: a mixture of 2 or more elements, one of which is a metal. Steel: An alloy (mixture) of iron and carbon. The carbon level in steel can be from .02% to about 1.8%. The carbon is usually dissolved into the iron and is invisible even under high magnification. Higher carbon levels are associated with cast iron. Other elements may be added for specific purposes. It is the carbon content that controls the ultimate hardness that can be achieve when the part is quenched. Cast Iron: Iron with over 1.8% carbon. The carbon exists as flakes or spheres and gives the iron a sooty gray appearance (hence, gray iron). Not suitable for forging. Mild Steel: Low carbon steel, .10% to about .20% carbon. And then it goes on for several PAGES of great information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IForgeIron Blueprints Copyright 2002 - 2007 IFORGEIRON, All rights reserved. BP0078 The Metallurgy of Heat Treating for Blacksmiths by Quenchcrack Robert Nichols It is not the purpose of this article to present the most highly technical aspects of metallurgy. However, some of the concepts will be new to you and may look rather intimidating. Don't worry about what it looks like, read it several times if necessary. Other metallurgists will note that some topics have been greatly simplified in an effort to illustrate certain basic principles. The purpose is to present some of the basics of ferrous metallurgy that will give the Blacksmith some insight into what is happening on a microstructural level during normal smithing processes. It is hoped that this will aid him or her in utilizing enough theory to avoid some trial-and-error disasters. It is not the intent of the author to impress you with big words, complex theory, or difficult concepts. However, metallurgy is a difficult and inexact science. The terms used are universally accepted and if you learn them, you will understand what others are trying to explain when discussing heat treating and metallurgy. Before we discuss the theory, we need to define some terms that are used to describe the characteristics of the metals we work with. Iron: Atomic No. 26 on the periodic chart. Comprises much of the earth�s core and is present almost everywhere on the earth as an oxide (iron combined with oxygen, as in rust). Alloy: a mixture of 2 or more elements, one of which is a metal. Steel: An alloy (mixture) of iron and carbon. The carbon level in steel can be from .02% to about 1.8%. The carbon is usually dissolved into the iron and is invisible even under high magnification. Higher carbon levels are associated with cast iron. Other elements may be added for specific purposes. It is the carbon content that controls the ultimate hardness that can be achieve when the part is quenched. Cast Iron: Iron with over 1.8% carbon. The carbon exists as flakes or spheres and gives the iron a sooty gray appearance (hence, gray iron). Not suitable for forging. Mild Steel: Low carbon steel, .10% to about .20% carbon.
arkie Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 8 hours ago, Buzzkill said: Scroll down. It's there. Ahhh, so....I stand corrected, thank you!. Just didn't go far enough. Senior moment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.