Loenja Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 first of all hi every one. im new here now my questions how much steel would i need to start with to get a decent hand and a half sword. and is it possible to forge weld mild steel and high carbon steel satisfactoraly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 The end sword should weigh about 2.5 pounds; factor in how much wastage you expect; but 4 pounds would be a starting point. Yes I can forge weld mild steel and high carbon steel satisfactoraly; If you have to ask the question it is unlikely that you can any time soon; takes some practice to get good at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 If are thinking of using the mild to give strength to the spine, you can differentially temper it to be softer and stronger. so use only high carbon. ? If pattern welding there are other steels to give more contract, but as was stated, if you have to ask types and amounts, then you are not quite ready for this sword project... YET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Welcome aboard. If you'll click on "User CP" at the top of the page and edit your profile to show your location you might find someone living close enough to give you a hand directly. Not to discourage you but forging a sword is not the place to start. It is, by analogy, like learning to drive in an Indy car, a quick route to failure. A sword is NOT a big knife it is exponentially more difficult than a knife which is much harder than competent forging. Learn to forge, learn to use grinder, sander, file and polisher, learn to heat treat, then learn to forge a small blade and work your way up. Or, just have at it. We all need a good mistake pile to ponder when we start feeling cocky. I have mine, just as I'm sure every competent smith here has theirs. Don't feel like I'm singling you out, almost every young man I've met wanted to make a sword. The only student I've ever had who made a blade was a young lady who had zero interest in making a sword but who picked up the basics so fast I figured she could do it. She did too, made herself a beautiful little sheath knife. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Browne Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Welcome to IFI And my other piece of advice is to listen to Frosty. My mistake pile is HUGE and I have never tried anything as complex as a sword. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Mistake piles could also be known as tuition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 I've heard them referred to as "the reference library" too. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 I've heard them referred to as "the reference library" too. Frosty Well put Frosty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfgar Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 im new to blacksmithing as well. and i tried to make a sword right off the bat. not a good idea. it will be much wiser and worth while to even just pound out some random steel to get a feel for your arm, hammer, forge, and steel. but anyways welcome to IFI and good luck ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 Hello: Scrap pile?? What's a scrap pile?? I have a pile of what I call "modification raey material".. After all I am way too chea....ummmmm frugal..yeah that's the word..frugal to make much scrap... Besides..after a few years ox experience you'd be surprised at what you can "save" from the "pile"..once you figure out what you are doing that is... JPH I see someone's been reading my books and quoting the obscure Zoroastrian poet Atar Bakhtar...hummmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falconer Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 You asked if you could forge weld mild steel and high carbon...absolutely. While I'm in complete agreement with the folks that say you aren't ready if you have to ask...I do not agree that you can temper high carbon steel to make it softer and stronger. High carbon, properly tempered, can hold a razor sharp edge. The problem is that it is too brittle for a blade of great length. You need the flexibility of mild steel combined with high carbon to attain both characteristics. To learn how this is done properly you need to look to the greatest swordsmiths in history...the Japanese. The Samurai sword was / is made by forge welding a high carbon "U" around a mild carbon center. Now, unless you are a brilliant prodigy in sword-smithing, you probably won't be able to do this with any real success for years and years. I, of course, allow for the possibility that you are a genius at blacksmithing...or the reincarnation of Masamune or another master swordsmith. Keep learning. Keep hammering... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 (edited) You don't have to agree, but I am curious, as to How many swords have you made? Differential hardening and differential tempering are common practices not just in blades, but in many area of metal work, As hardness drops the strength increases. Edited November 28, 2008 by steve sells Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonEagle Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 pssst news flash. japanese blades are mix tempered. the quality of japenese steel in that day was very difficult to control which is why they are folded the way they are, to make the carbon content consistant throughout the blade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falconer Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 (edited) I've been forging swords for just over ten years now. I've been using differential hardening and tempering on all kinds of tools and blades for the same time. And, yes, I know the Japanese have used it in swordsmithing for centuries as well. It is correct that the carbon steel was folded over and over to uniformly distrubute the carbon in the blade. And all experienced smiths know that when you increase hardness you reduce ductility and so on...This is all basic metalurgy. I can tell you from experience though that the range of hardness needed for a good blade is too high to make it flexible...which is why it is useful to look to the Japanese swordsmiths. If you use some form of high carbon steel, even differentially hardened and tempered, you cannot achieve the same results. Edited November 28, 2008 by Falconer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 .I do not agree that you can temper high carbon steel to make it softer and stronger. And all experienced smiths know that when you increase hardness you reduce ductility and so on...This is all basic metalurgy. I can tell you from experience though that the range of hardness needed for a good blade is too high to make it flexible...which is why it is useful to look to the Japanese swordsmiths. If you use some form of high carbon steel, even differentially hardened and tempered, you cannot achieve the same results. These statements appear to contradict. First you state it can not make it stronger and soften, then seem to say it does? I admit that there is a lot of give and take in everything we do to heat treat. How much we think a blade needs to flex is one question we must ask to help define what will work and what will not. I am not aware of any Epee's that were of compound materials, but I do not study them so I can be greatly mistaken. The point I was making is for a beginner to start, mono steel is the best beginning place. Choice of a steel such as 5160H makes a good mono blade material, where as many Stainless steels for a mono sword would have more of an issue. "can not" is a strong statement to make over as broad a terms as 'softer and stronger'. The science states it will be both when tempered at a higher temp. I am getting confused by these statements , as I bet are those trying to learn something from this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falconer Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 (edited) Perhaps my posts have been imprecise... Your use of 'stronger' and 'softer' are as well though. High carbon steel holds an edge because it is harder. Hardening the same steel makes it harder still. It distributes the carbon in such a way that they doesn't allow the iron crystals to shift. At the same time it becomes more brittle and less ductile. It becomes too hard to bend like a real sword needs to. Tempering softens this. Tempering to the point where so much hardness is taken out of the blade reduces it's ability to hold a good edge, however. The Japanese found that inserting, forge welding, a mild steel core inside a high carbon casing reduces the stress of the hardening and tempering process and allows the steel to bend and still retain a very sharp edge. If you use simply HC steel for a blade...you can differentially harden, then temper the edge. The result is a long blade that holds a decent edbge but is still unable to bend sufficiently for use as a real sword. It will remain too brittle. I know this because I've done it. A beginner is well advised to make his / her first attempts using one HC steel. No question... The question that was originally asked was: Can one forge mild steel onto HC to make a good sword. I was attempting to point out that that is the BEST way to make a real sword. When making wall hangers it doesn't matter what steel one uses. When making Damascus blades one is making more of a work of art than a real, usable sword. Each process has it's pros and cons. Edited November 28, 2008 by Falconer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 Perhaps my posts have been imprecise... Your use of 'stronger' and 'softer' are as well though. High carbon steel holds an edge because it is harder. Hardening the same steel makes it harder still. It distributes the carbon in such a way that they doesn't allow the iron crystals to shift. At the same time it becomes more brittle and less ductile. It becomes too hard to bend like a real sword needs to. Tempering softens this. Tempering to the point where so much hardness is taken out of the blade reduces it's ability to hold a good edge, however. The Japanese found that inserting, forge welding, a mild steel core inside a high carbon casing reduces the stress of the hardening and tempering process and allows the steel to bend and still retain a very sharp edge. If you use simply HC steel for a blade...you can differentially harden, then temper the edge. The result is a long blade that holds a decent edbge but is still unable to bend sufficiently for use as a real sword. It will remain too brittle. I know this because I've done it. A beginner is well advised to make his / her first attempts using one HC steel. No question... The question that was originally asked was: Can one forge mild steel onto HC to make a good sword. I was attempting to point out that that is the BEST way to make a real sword. When making wall hangers it doesn't matter what steel one uses. When making Damascus blades one is making more of a work of art than a real, usable sword. Each process has it's pros and cons. I have to dissagree ... if you use a hi carbon steel with the right alloys you can get good edge holding and good spring .i refer specifically to allowys like 5160 which is a comon spring steel .. i know many people think the japanese swords were magic and that nothing made today can match them but to put it bluntly BULL! now you can get all kinds of special allowys that can make a really hard and really tough blade ... it kinda depends on what you expect for performance but it isnt anything secret and it dosent require a lot of forgewelding to get a good sword!!! damascus or more properly pattern welded steel is done for the pattern mostly ... a few people try to emulate the japanese sword masters but that is a whole order different from makeing a good sword ! it is like the knife makers that get raw ore and smelt it to make a knife... not done cause it is better knife but because they think it is cool!as far as BEST method i have to say for performance there are steel alloys that work much better than any of the forge welded blades ... some are wuite exotic with special hardening and tempering requirements but that is overboard for what we are talking about. unless you have a power hammer or strikers with sledge hammers makeing a damascus or patern welded sword blade is way too much work by yourself ! i would suggest a good spring steel for toughness and edge holding ability and i would use a differential temper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 (edited) Hope no ones minds my tuppence... Steve: You may as well just give up now, cause from the sounds of it Falconer is one of those who feel that the Japanese swords are/were the be all end all of swords. He probably doesn't even realize that the Europeans were doing much more elaborate forge work some 1000 years before the Japanese picked up on it from the Chinese and Koreans. To answer the original question..I would forgo the forge welding until you are much more intimate with the proceses involved...Rather I would suggest that you get some 5160 which makes a really decent sword. Then again..that's my opinion and I have made a couple of swords in my time...and that is what I use to this day mostly... JPH Edited November 29, 2008 by JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 I am just glad I didn't mention L-6, hellasious bending ability and good edge holding. But I don't think of that as a beginner's steel either. Sometimes I wonder why I deal with it, rather than 1560, or 5160H. still its great for the bright layers in pattern welding. I wish I had more F-1 to go with it :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falconer Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 You may feel free to address me directly. Apparently I've stepped on a few toes and bruised some fragile egos by disagreeing with some of the statements made here. That was not my intention. I only wanted to add my experience to the mix. To date, I've forged almost 30 swords over the last ten years. I've used 5160 on occassion and it does indeed make a fine blade. In addition to making swords, I've taught Japanese swordsmanship for over 25years. I now what a good blade is and 5160 will just not hold up as well, (maintain a razor sharp edge and the flexibility to take blows from another blade). Those of you who only know the metalurgy of blades and have never actually made or used a sword have offered nothing but your opinions. Each of us has the right to our own and I respect that. To change my mind, however, I want to see proof against my own experience. I do, in fact, believe that Japanese swords are the finest in history. I've studied the craft for some years and am well aware that they learned much from early Chinese masters. Unfortunatley the secrets discovered by the Chinese have largely been lost. If one believes the Europeans made a comparable, or better, blade than the Japanese, or Chinese, I'd like to see it. I don't have a web site to sell my swords. What I have is a near 3 year waiting list for one of my swords. The last one sold for over 5000 dollars. Disagree with me if you wish. It makes little difference to me. All the proof I need is in my experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 (edited) Got a link to any pictures of your work Falconer? I would love to see your work. Edited November 29, 2008 by ApprenticeMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 (edited) I am only a part time bladesmith, full time electrician. But my 5160 katana is still holding up fine, and I have had only one warranty repair in 15 years of making them, and he was cutting firewood with it, and broke off last 3 inches or so. If I make myself another one it will be L6. Experience? no where hear as much as JPH here, but he has taught my teacher a few things, As for myself? not a lot cutting, as I teach Jujitsu, which is not known as an art heavy into sword work. This was not intended to be a "mine is better that yours" ploy, only that a statement of "can not be strong/soft" is like Best of anything, it will make people speak up. There are many ways to make a fine blade, but some mono's are just as good as many laminates. I have no idea what martial arts teaching has to do with blades edge retention vs flexibility, but here goes... Shinan Steve Sells, No Tora Ryu Jujitsu Sandan Goshin Jutsu Jujitsu Nidan Yoshinkai Aikido plus a few years playing in TKD Edited November 29, 2008 by steve sells typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falconer Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 (edited) You're a kindred spirit! I find it too easy to misread peoples moods over a forum. I started to feel attacked on several sides after just posting my opinion here... Sorry if I gave any offense. As I said, 5160 makes a fine blade. Sword fighting is the best test for a good sword. Those that have never done it are missing a big dimension in the study. I studied JuJutsu in the Marine Corps...about a hundred years ago! Got a Shodan and the instructor insisted I do so in another art for Nidan. I chose Kyokushin Kai Karate...mainly because it was what was nearby. My instructor was also a Kenjutsu / Iaijutsu instructor and I LOVED the sword! Still do... I've been doing it now for 30 plus years... (I feel old!!) Making swords has added a whole new dimension to my understanding. I'm now a full time blacksmith...and find it much more rewarding than my previous life. I'm looking forward to the tet-a-tets on the forum. I've learned some new perspectives already. Electrician huh?...I wish you could walk me through three phase conversion to single phase. I'm buying a 200# Bradley Upright Strap hammer in a week or so and need to run it on 3ph. I know how to do with an old three phase motor adding a third phase to the system. Is that really better than a static converter though?? And...if I buy a static converter from Grainger...they say it is for 4-8HP. Will that run a 1-4 HP as well? (Quite stupid in the ways of the electron!!) P.S. Apprentice man...I don't have a web site but I'll be happy to shoot you some photos of my blades. They are the culmination of a LOT of mistakes! Edited November 29, 2008 by Falconer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 I dont have a dog in this hunt however I would like to know how one can compare a vintage Japanese piece with modern without doing some destructive testing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falconer Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 ...on what you mean by "Test". The only test neccessary for a vintage katana was the cutting test. I have one that was made in 1624 by a sword maker named Bokuden and it still looks and cuts like new. The Japanese will bundle a bunch of reeds together around a bamboo center and soak them in water until they are water-logged. (This is said to simulate the human neck..) They then cut it with a series of strokes from different angles to test the blade. Other than feeling the balance and visual inspection for defects...there are no other 'tests' neccessary. The same is true for a modern blade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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