All I know is that I know nothing

[Archie Zietman]

Hello.
Until today I considered myself a reasonably competent smith. I have been smithing for a few years now, learned from various teachers, taught a good many people the basics of blacksmithing, sold a fair bit of work, filled commissions, tried my hand at a number of area of blacksmithing, from bladesmithing to sheetmetal work to everyday hooks etc.

But then today, I was in my college's forge, and there was another smith there also. He was older than me by several years, and working on some very large bronze vines for a railing. I've never even dreamt of making a railing before. It was quite humbling.
I set about making my little steak turner. I felt a bit awkward making such a small thing next to him. After I spent a few minutes of drawing out a taper, and messing with the design, the other smith turned to me, and said "May I give you some unsolicited advice?"
I am not terribly used to advice, mostly working alone, but I allowed him to go ahead. "You might try a lighter hammer. You want to be able to swing your hammer for a long time without getting tired, efficiency is the name of the game." And he handed me a lighter hammer.
I've been smithing in earnest for maybe two years, and on and off for two or three years before that. To have someone I didn't know hand me a lighter hammer, and explain why a lighter hammer was better was a significant shock. At first I felt a little insulted. I finished up my project with the lighter hammer, having to redo parts several times because of my agitation, only to realize that I needed several more inches on the bar to make a decent steak turner. I turned it into a poker instead.
Before the smith left, he said that the shop manager had told him that I've been to Penland. I asked if he had ever been, and he said no, but that he was considering teaching there, as he had been smithing for 8 years.

I've been mulling over the encounter in my head since. It is a terrifying and wonderful thing when you suddenly realize that you know nothing about what you do. I am humbled because it has only just hit me how little I know after 4 years of study and two of intensive practice. But it is wonderful because I have my bearings on this smithing journey, and, like Socrates know that I know nothing. I need to reread why exactly it was a good thing that he knew, but I know that it is.

Have any of you had this experience?

be merry,
Archie

[Avadon]

I love advice provided it's from someone who knows more and is not just from an idiot. That sounds like good advice to me. Sometimes I end up fallng into the "use a bigger hammer routine" when really more heat is the answer. More heat/lighter hammer = less work it seems.

[unkle spike]

Never afraid to take advice, or be shown something. I started with a 3 pound hammer, and soon moved to a 2 pounder, I am not that big of a guy so it works better for me.

[Avadon]

The trick is being fast enough to drop the 2lb hammer and pick up a 5lb hammer and hold it over your head right before they take the picture

then you can show that to the ladies :p

[Frosty]

Something I learned from my Father was to listen to everybody. After a while you'll know when there's been something of value passed on.

I try to listen and try new things especially if it's a matter of technique, it may not improve what I'm doing at the time but it's another tool in my mental tool kit to draw on at another time.

A person doesn't necessarily have to know more about what I'm doing to have a useful idea, observation, etc. For example a couple decades ago I was preparing a spruce block to receive my newly acquired 125lb Sodorfors anvil. I was sitting on the front deck of the mobile home I lived in at the time and was marking out the footprint so I could carve the excess wood away. My plan was to make the block the same general shape as the foot of the anvil with an inch or so extra all round and carve it to shape with my chainsaw.

Well, I had it up on another block and was getting ready to take the chainsaw to it when one of the neighbor kids who'd stopped by a little earlier to see what I was doing stopped by again.

He frowned and asked what I was doing AGAIN. Kids can be a real pain with the Why game. So being patient I explained again. (or so I thought)

He said, "Oh, I thought you were going to carve the anvil into the wood."

Uh. . . "Good idea." That's how that anvil has been mounted ever since. I morticed it into the block of green spruce which shrunk and has held the anvil solid as all get out. It also killed most of it's ring, it was so loud it'd make my ears ring through muffs and ear plugs. That is another reason I don't "tap" the anvil, too darned loud.

Anyway, I've gotten good ideas from all quarters, from knowledgible folk and folk who knew absolutely nothing.

Frosty

[Jack Evers]

Some years ago I put on a clinic "forge work for farriers". Most if not all of these guys were doing cold work only and 3 and 4 pound hammers were the norm. One guy pulled his first piece of hot iron out of the forge and nearly cut it in half with a blow from his 3 pounder. He went to his truck and came back with a new looking 1-1/2 pounder saying "My kid gave me this a few years ago - said it was a rounding hammer - guess maybe he was right."

[Rob Browne]

Just goes to show that you can learn something from everyone you meet. May not be a better way to do something but if it is wrong for you at least you have thought about it and won't make that mistake in the future.

[rthibeau]

Someone can watch you work and comment on the oddest thing, and as it turns out, it's what you were thinking about changing someday. Just goes to show you need input from someone, not just work alone.

[divermike]

I applaud your self introspection, it really is a matter of ego. We go to hammer ins, take classes, watch demo's and always are eager for that little tidbit of info from people we know are more experienced. But put us in a situation where we are not expecting, nor are prepared for mentoring, and the ego beast raises his head. Humble pie is not very tasty, but it sure is filling!! I have tasted it several times just recently. Once again, congratulations on sailing over a reef lesser men have become shipwrecked upon.

[jayco]

Archie, I had an incident several years ago that this thread reminded me of.

I had only started learning blacksmithing, when a friend convinced me to do a demo at a local festival. I was totally unprepared, didn't have much of anything to sell...crude pokers,leaves, and hooks was about all I knew how to make!

Besides all that, there was some kid who kept wanting me to make him a knife.
( The only stock I had brought was some old bolts and some pieces of rebar!)
Needless to say, I was having a difficult day!

I was determined to make a 'show of it', if nothing else.
( I was quite noisy with my hammering and had loaded a lot of green coal onto the fire.....thick smoke everywhere)

While all this was going on, an old fellow walked up and asked "What are burning in that forge, DIRT?"

"What are you making?"
(a knife)

"What steel are you using?"
(I don't know.....just an old bolt)

"How do you plan to quench it?"
(water.....)?

I had no answers for any of his questions. After a few minutes of watching, he strolled away to the next demonstration, and as he left he wished me "Good Luck".
I never saw him again, but I've always remembered the meeting.

During that brief exchange, I realized that he knew something about blacksmithing,.......and that I didn't

Around here , we would call this "Getting your come-uppance", and I did!

I now look upon the old guy's comments as a gentle reminder to do better

Just thought I'd share.
( I,m at that age when every incident becomes a boring little story :)

[nthe10ring]

Archie,
How heavy was the hammer you were using. Just wondered, im still searching for the perfect set up myself.

Jerry

[HWooldridge]

I had a similar experience when I first started 'smithing. I was trying to make shepherd's hooks on the ends of rods and had the devil's time until a more experienced smith showed me some very simple tools to make life so much easier.

Practicing habitual humility is a great thing as it reminds one that we all are human and put our pants on one leg at a time. Maybe some folks can run faster or lift more weight than the next person but we all were born naked and eventually will go out feet first - the important stuff is what happens in-between. I find it best to keep my mind open all the time and try to learn something new every day but that's just my own personal philosophy that I decided on when I was a teenager because the worst thing I believe a person can do is to close their mind to fresh thought and ideas. Of course, you need a basic understanding of a process to separate the wheat from the chaff but as Frosty noted, even the neighbor kid who had no experience can offer that initial spark to make an idea take root.

The major problem almost everyone has is their own ego. Men especially want to perform and show off what they know. I see this everyday in business - you get a group of type A's in one room and they will spend an hour trying to impress each other while failing to solve the issue that brought them all together in the first place. Herein lies the great strength of humility and a splendid example when he washed the feet of his disciples. Although he was the Great Teacher and really did know everything, he still set the standard for service by this simple act.

I believe that you will grow a great deal if you can accept a little advice now and then without getting angry about it. Francis Whitaker said it takes 20 years to become a master blacksmith but even late in life he was still discovering new techniques. I have been at it 26 years but do not consider myself a master smith - and maybe that's a good thing...

[Archie Zietman]

Thanks all for your replies. The hammer I was using was only 2 pounds or so, maybe 1.5 pounds. I downsized to an 800 gram crosspien at the other smith's suggestion. I wish there had been an 800 gram ball pien, I really like their balance.

[Shane Stegmeier]

Having the humility and meekness to be open to nearly everyone is a great asset. Don't be intimidated by those who have impressive skill, but don't lookdown on those who aren't as far long as you are. You can learn things even from fools, if you have patience and humility. Sometimes you can learn an interesting solution from someone who isn't bound by the same expectations. The inexperienced often find it easier to "think outside the box" than someone who has "better" training;-) American ingenuity was partly due to the lack of a rigid guild structure like Europe had. The people who emigrated here who had a solid grounding in the basics, but hadn't been taught the advanced skills were forced to invent them. In a similiar way the guild structure in Europe tried to encourage intellectual hybrid vigor by having Journeymen travel to different Master's shops to see how other smiths did their work.

If you think you have arrived it is a sure sign, something is wrong;-) It is important to continue to learn... It is important to continue to challenge yourself... Blacksmithing is a process, mastering those skills is a journey that takes a lifetime. There are no shortcuts in life, but if you are smart and/or lucky you can get a map and/or a good guide or two. There is no substitute for hardwork and perserverance, but creativity always helps...

Edited November 16, 2008 by Fionnbharr (finn:-)

[J W Bennett]

Archie,
This past year A local farrier and I had the pleasure of teaching the local 4H blacksmithing program. I can honestly say it was as much a learning experience for me as it was them. They ask questions that I never asked myself, sometimes I had the answers sometimes I didn't. I did not "make up" answers if I didn't not know I would find the answer by the next meeting.
I did a forge welding demo for them and forged 3 chain links and welded them. The welds held but I wasn't happy with the quality of the 3 links. I started practacing forging and welding at least 3 chain links at every demo I do and then forging a fourth link and welding them to the main chain that I started with. The chain is now over 10' long. The only way to get better is to practice.
I teach basics and am still learning the basics, You know more than you think you do but not as much as you wish you knew. If you could learn it all then were would the challenge come from.
I have yet to be around other smiths and not learn something.

John

[Archie Zietman]

I just got an e-mail from my old school offering me the chance to take a 2 week intensive blacksmithing course at Haystack Mountain School of Crafts. I've decided I'm going to take a class on vessel-making with rick Smith which will also allow me to learn a bunch of things like forge welding, putting patinas on steel, repousse and more. It'll be good to go back to advanced-basics. In the meantime I am going to practice punching slitting drifting and splitting with a hot chisel.

thanks again for your replies.

[dablacksmith]

this is a good thread! i have to say that any blacksmith that i still pasonate about blacksmithing is always learning! ive been smithing for 25+ years and i learn new things all the time! one way to learn is to teach... just teaching someone basic smithing will make you learn about smithing and yourself.... i had a student that wirked construction and was haveing a hard time drawing out a piece of steel .. it took me some time to figure out what was wrong with his hammer swing .. then i realised he was used to haveing a air nailer and his swing was funny because he was letting off his swing about halfway down and had a funny angle to his swing.. it made me really think about my swing mechanics so i could teach ... also i find beginners can be afraid of the hot metal so they try to stand too far from the anvil .. makes it hard to get any work done .anyway ... you will always be learning in this trade if your open to it! it dosent mean that you cant be good or even expert at it it just means there is always something new to learn!

[Alwin]

I am skeptical of the advice you were given. It is often more taxing on the body to use a hammer that is too light. One tends to try to muscle the hammer to get more effect with a lighter hammer, often causing more damage- tendonitis. It is impossible to make a judgement without being there, but pay attention to your body. If you start hurting, other than sore muscles, stop what you are doing and change your technique. If the heavier hammer wasn't hurting you use it. You'll get a little stronger using it, and you'll move metal faster and easier. The limitation to hammer weight in my opinion has a lot to do with the strain it causes your wrists and arm when you are working at angles and starting and stopping a lot. I find that a three to three and a half pound hammer works best for me, but that is after 10 + years of forging.

[Frosty]

There's a lot of subjective judgment to choosing the right weight hammer for the work, what works for one may not work for another. Most of us who've been at it even a short time know this.

What may not be obvious while we're working may be to someone watching. I know I've had students change hammer weight, both up and down in response to things they weren't aware of.

There are times a job will go faster with more controlled rather than faster movement of the metal.

Frosty

[Shane Stegmeier]

In my experience more people run into problems with moving up to a hammer that is too heavy too quickly, even when they think they can handle the weight. I have seen people who were plenty strong, and even construction workers, who could swing the hammer fine, but blacksmithing is different, and it wears on you differently. There are people who can use a 6# or even an 8# hammer for everything, but most people can't. I messed myself up when I was young, I used an 8# hand sledge for everything except finishing the bevels on a blade. Now I vary the size and shape of the hammer I am working with a great deal, depending on what I am doing, and what size stock I am working on. And I personally find that there are some jobs that I do prefer to use a small hammer. I have also noticed that once I am fatigued then it is wise to either quit or switch to the smallest hammer that will do the job. For most people, especially when they are just starting out, it is wisest to quit and rest. Pushing through generally results in poor form and poor results at best, and chronic physical problems at worst. Been there done that... An iron will and a body of mear flesh, generally results in problems;-)

[HWooldridge]

I started with a standard Plumb 2-1/2 lb, went up to a 3 and then up to a 4. That was too heavy and gave me arm trouble so over the years, I worked my way back down to a 2-1/2 lb design that I made for myself. I'm a few weeks away from turning 50 and have never had chronic arm problems but am trying to preserve my body as best I can.

With regard to size, I personally have found that a 1 to 1-1/2 lb hammer won't forge much above 3/8" effectively, 2-1/2 to 3 lb will work up to 3/4" and 4 lb will go up to an inch or so. However, much of that depends on the amount of work at hand - forging 50 pcs of 3/8" square into points is a different job than making a single 1" high carbon work bar.

I believe a 3 lb hammer is a good all around size for the average person (if you are used to it), but laying off for six months and then going at it for a couple hours will almost assuredly tear up your arm. It's like trying to bench press 250 lbs without regular exercise; you might make a rep or two but it will likely cause damage. Staying in shape and warming up a bit prior to heavy hammering are important to preventing injuries and extending your longevity in the craft.

[Gary]

I recently took a tool making class. I had some marginal success at a recent conference and was feeling good about myself and where I was at. This class showed me how much I didn't know. I struggled and failed and hopefuly learned something from the sad looking bunch of items I ended up with at the end of the class. I have much work to do.

[bipolarandy]

This was a great thread untill it became a "my hammer is bigger than yours"

Nice going on the class Archie, thats sounds like a aewsome opportunity. Take some pictures wile your there, Iv heard Haystack is a beautiful place to stay

[Hofi]

The first photo shows the set of hammers that I am forging with and they are very near to my forging station.
most of my forging 90% is done with the cast 3# and the forged 3,3#
The 4,4-5,3-9,25 -# I use very seldom for punching big holes or when I need
single or some very heavy hits for a short time . from the shining handles one
can see that they are in yse all the time.
Using a heavy hammer for forging is not depending on power but only on technic .I can forge with the 3 - 3.3 - 4.4 # hammers hours long and I am
74 years old.
In Germany in the old times before the II WW in the forging schools they had a speciel program to teach the use of the striking hammer. 14 kg -30# hammer was one of them.
Bipolarandy I do not understand the first line of your thread for me it is still very interesting because we all learn a lot from different aproches to the problam I think u have to tink it over again
Hofi
the 4.4# hammer on the photo that was in 1993 is 15 years old with the same mapel handle that I produced with the drawknife that I sent pix of to the other thread and glued with the ''sikaflex 11 fc'' and still going strong

[Pault17]

Cool deal on the class and quick mentoring you received Archie! I too had just such an experience when I was working at the state fair a few weeks ago. I watched a local master smith repeatedly make a mule head hook from a horseshoe, and by the end of the day worked up the gumption to ask if I could strike for him just to learn the method. When we finished he told me to get a shoe and straighten it out. by the time I finished straightening the shoe, I looked up to see the "teacher" gone and crowd of people waiting to see me make a mulehead hook. I was halfway done when the smith came back and said that he knew I could do it. then proceeded to help me fix the few areas I didn't have quite right.