Advice on buying a forge

[OlavFairhair]

Hello guys, I'm new here. I'm a beginner blacksmith from Norway. I have built my own first forge, but I'm now considering buying a forge. Unfortunately there are limited options for me where I live. A little back story on why I want to buy a new forge.

My current forge is based on isolating bricks. It has a steel shell with 1" of ceramic fiber, followed by isolating bricks. I also use a high-alumina brick as the forge floor. I use a Devil Forge burner (the 80 000 BTU one). Once it's properly heated up, it works fine in my estimation. Mind you, I'm a beginner but it heats steel up to yellow fairly quick. The thing is, it takes forever to warm up. It's probably at least 45 minutes until it's hot. And that's a problem because I have a fulltime job, and this is a hobby so I only really have a couple hours after work and on Saturdays. Maybe I'm using too low of a pressure, but I don't think so because the burner is running fine. I don't use a pressure gauge.

The other problem is I have a lot of dragon's breath. Most of the time it's blue. I've tried reducing the pressure or open the choke to no avail. Nothing I have tried makes any difference, so I'm guessing it's something with my design. I do have a CO monitor just to be sure. I included some photos of my forge and its dragon breath. I also end up having quite a "scaly" surface even with frequent wire brushing. So I'm confused because I thought scaly steel is a result of oxidizing flame, while blue flame is a rich flame. It's internal measurements are 4.5" wide, by 3.1" high, by 11.8" long.

All these reasons lead me to wanting a better forge, primarily for 1) heating up faster and 2) hopefully more fuel efficient. I don't have access to an old propane tank to make a forge myself, I'd have to buy a new one and cut that up. However, it'd be really nice to buy something that's already proven. Currently I'm only considering single burner forges as a two burner forge would consume a lot more fuel, which I think is expensive enough as is. But of course I'm open to suggestions! It seems like most people use two burner forges.

1. The first option is a really expensive, high quality forge. It's a Nargesa H1 (made in Spain). They boast a whopping 75% reduction in fuel consumption (compared to other forges in same category), operating 100 hours on a 35kg (77lbs) cylinder at 1 bar or 14.5 psi. Comes with electronic ignition, stainless steel hose, 0.002% CO emissions, anti-return valve, thermocouple safety valve and the whole nine yards. But it's $1400, so fairly expensive. Single burner. Using compacted vermiculite as isolation so it's not hazardous. This is very expensive but provides the whole package, and uses a lot less fuel. Apparently reaches temperatures of 1300 C / 2372 F. The single burner version has a fairly small volume. Double burner is much bigger but costs $500 more.

2. Second option is a Devil Forge gas forge. I'm considering DFPROFK1. This one has 2" of ceramic fiber and costs around $500. This is obviously a much cheaper option, but it would require me to put some castable refractory in there. This also has a gas savings system using a bypass, but I'm not sure how effective it is? It also uses a much larger burner of 180,000 BTUs, so I suspect it's going to consume a lot of fuel. It also comes with bricks to fill the inside, not just floor but sides as well. Does anyone know why this would be? I think it would be better to just coat the ceramic with castable and ignore the bricks. The DFPROF1+1D/2" model does not have a front door but 2" of isolation and a smaller burner and almost half price (but much smaller) which might be a good choice. The larger burner (180,000) consumes a lot more fuel, which makes me fear it's going to be expensive to run.

My current forge runs around 8-12 hours on a 11kg propane bottle (24lbs) depending on the pressure. The devil forge would probably heat up a lot faster but use more fuel, while the Nargesa would last at least 3 times longer than my current forge according to their numbers. However, it's a big expense, especially for a hobby with limited time.

At the same time, I could get the Devil Forge and a variable speed belt grinder from for example Vevor for the same price of the Nargesa H1!

Bit of a wall of text, but I guess I just wanted to explain my predicament and pick your brains about it, and see if any of you guys have any opinions or advice on the selection or the forges themselves. I don't feel like I know enough to be able to make a good decision on this. Any insight is greatly appreciated!

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Howdy from eastern Oklahoma and welcome to the forum!!

I don’t know much about gas rigs but someone who does will be along shortly!

[LeeJustice]

I have to ask if you have A.)  rigidized the ceramic wool insulation, and B.)  used some sort of flame face refractory to seal that wool in the forge and most important, OUT of your lungs?

The insulating bricks, are they hard firebricks?  If so, they will be a big heat sink.  Soft firebricks will insulate better while not soaking up your forges' heat.

Two words of advice for your next forge:  Mr. Volcano.

Oh, welcome from Upstate South Carolina..  

[OlavFairhair]

Lee: They are not fire bricks (hard), they are insulating bricks (soft). I have used some refractory cement between the ceramic wool and the insulating bricks. So the wool is safely behind the cement, behind the bricks, so I hope it's safe!

The floor (high alumina brick) is a hard brick.

I'm not sure I can get a Mr. Volcano forge to Norway. There are at least no local suppliers.

[LeeJustice]

No local ones here either.  I bought mine from Amazon.  I think that is really their sole distributor.

[OlavFairhair]

Thank you for the suggestion. Unfortunately, I cannot seem to find it on Amazon. None that would ship here anyway. But I guess an oval/round forge with offset burner such as the Mr Volcano would distribute heat more evenly than the Devil Forge forges. But I'm not sure how big of an issue that is.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

12 minutes ago, LeeJustice said:

No local ones here either.  I bought mine from Amazon.  I think that is really their sole distributor.

I just looked it up and Norway doesn’t have its own amazon store from what I read

the closest is Amazon Uk or amazon Germany but when I checked those stores the German store didn’t offer anything from Mr Volcano and the UK store only offers the parts individually like kastolight plistex rigidizer and the wool all separately 

8 minutes ago, OlavFairhair said:

Thank you for the suggestion. Unfortunately, I cannot seem to find it on Amazon. None that would ship here anyway. But I guess an oval/round forge with

that’s Tuff one man!

I read that y’all can have some high costs to import stuff in Norway 

[OlavFairhair]

1 minute ago, TWISTEDWILLOW said:

Norway doesn’t have its own amazon store from what I read

That's right! We don't, unfortunately. It's still very possible to order stuff from abroad but the shipping costs varies a lot! 

2 minutes ago, TWISTEDWILLOW said:

I read that y’all can have some high costs to import stuff in Norway 

You bet. It's a flat 25% tax fee on anything you order outside of Norway as a private person. A bit less for companies.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Wow thats some steep taxes dude!!!! 

I checked the Amazon UK for the cheaply made Chinese forges but they are all several hundred euros before taxes!!! Sheesh 

That’s tough I didn’t realize until your post that Norway was limited that much!!! 

I knew that there was different Amazon store for different countries

because I got a really good deal on a fishing reel that costs $500 USD here in store and I was able to get it from Amazon Japan for wayyyyyyyy less!

 

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

I been googling around and I haven’t found a gas forge manufacturer yet from Norway but I did find a company out of Sweden, are you close to the Border? Maybe you could save a lot on shipping?

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Olaf, glad to have you. 

I don't know how much help building, buying, etc. I can be with your forge. However if you have ceramic's shops or pottery shops there are suppliers where they get their material. 

Virtually everything that goes into a propane forge here is the same as goes into a pottery / ceramic kiln. 

If a used propane bottle isn't available you can use stove pipe. 12" stove pipe with 2" layer of blanket is 8" id, put maybe 1/4" water setting hard refractory and it's 7 1/2" ID. a couple coats of a good kiln wash like Plistex won't reduce the ID enough to notice. 

Hardware for stove pipe is off the shelf so you wouldn't have to manufacture legs, ends, etc. I like Stainless steel stovepipe because it is an efficient IR reflector so more heat stays inside the forge and the shell stays cooler. 

That's more an example than directions for building a forge.

Our club had a propane forge build "clinic" a couple years ago. We built small single burner no weld forges with 1/2" T burners. The club bought everything in bulk and resold to members at a small profit for the club. IFB, angle iron, strap stock, all thread, Plistex, propane regulator, hose, 1/4 turn shut off valve and needle valve. Enough Kastolite -30, water setting high alumina refractory to make a hard durable floor. 

We have Morgan ceramics K-26 insulating firebrick (IFB) available for reasonable available, it's rated to 2,600f continuous and are made with an alumina binder and are not as susceptible to molten borax flux. They clamp together with simple angle iron frames and all thread. We double dipped the IFB in a thinned Plistex solution before assembly.

Member cost was about $112.00 IIRC. Below is a pic of one about 2 minutes after lighting.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[OlavFairhair]

14 hours ago, TWISTEDWILLOW said:

are you close to the Border?

Yes, I'm pretty close. Shipping from Sweden is also likely less of a problem. Which manufacturer did you find?

14 hours ago, Frosty said:

If a used propane bottle isn't available

Thanks for the suggestions Frosty. Is it safe to cut in the bottles after emptying them and filling them with water?

14 hours ago, Frosty said:

Below is a pic of one about 2 minutes after lighting.

Makes me wonder why mine is so slow relative to your example here. Is it because of the flooring, that my high alumina 1.25" thick brick floor soaks too much heat? Or can it be the burner placement? 

The Devil Forge looks nice with doors, but I'm wondering, is it more problematic? Because in the picture below, the door is entirely filled with ceramic wool. If I were to have a layer of castable on top, the door would struggle to shut properly. Do I remove some of the thickness of the wool to make up for the castable refractory?

[LeeJustice]

The forge that you made looks well made.  With the burner being top dead center it may be that there is heated air (Oxygen) impinging upon your steel, resulting in the scaling you mentioned.  Some of the folks here recommend a 'D' shape or oval with the flame pointed at the sidewall or far floor,  from the top or side mount, like 10 or two o'clock.  If you made another, 2" of the insulating blanket will help.

Too bad about the lack of Mr. Volcano being on your version of Amazon.  The whole kit is only $88 US.  The burner, wool, refractory, hoses, you name it.  I bought a second one, single burner forge.

Personally, I am wary of Vevor stuff.  It seems to me that they sell anything and everything.  That makes me think that they will slap their brand name on stuff from many other manufacturers and sell it as their own.  Just my personal opinion on that.

[Frosty]

2 hours ago, OlavFairhair said:

Is it safe to cut in the bottles after emptying them and filling them with water?

Yes, so long as the valve is open so there's no pressurized gas there isn't much danger at all. There isn't any oxy in the bottle so the propane can't burn, sparks, flame, whatever. If you want to clear the smell mix about 1 cup chlorine bleach per gallon of water will remove the mercaptan odorant. 2 cups bleach in a 20lb. tank filled with water is clean soaked over night.

Yeah, a 1.25" kiln shelf is a serious heat sink. All you need a kiln shelf to do is prevent flux from contacting the brick, .25" is plenty or you can make a stainless steel pan to catch drips. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

One often-overlooked step in decommissioning a propane tank is alerting the neighbors. If you have any within smelling distance, it's best to give them a heads-up so that they don't think there's a gas leak and call the fire department.

[Frosty]

That really only applies if you're dumping liquid propane not clearing residual vapor. Then again if you have a zero lot line neighbor it could cause problems. So, better safe than sorry. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

Time spent improving relationships with the neighbors is never wasted (especially when you're making noise and smell on the regular).

[Frosty]

True words.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Your photo makes what is wrong with that forge obvious, and it is the burner. Either buying or building a burner is the first step to improving this forge, or replacing it with a better one. However, a proper burner is likely to solve most of your problems with the present forge. So, get smart and stop thinking about replacing the forge, without knowing that you actually need too. Think "better burner for my forge."

[NoGoodWithUsernames]

Mikey, would one of the Frosty Tee Burners be an improvement over that style of burner? Easy to build and materials should be readily available pretty much anywhere in the world.

Also would it be helpful to try and induce cooler air from the sides somehow and avoid sucking in hot, O2 deficient air from the front and back where the dragon's breath is? 

[OlavFairhair]

35 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

get smart and stop thinking about replacing the forge, without knowing that you actually need too

Well yes, actually, I wanted to replace the forge BECAUSE I didn't know what to do. My thought process was if I buy one, there would be less time spent fiddling with it and figuring out what wrong. And besides, from what I've read, brick forges will always slower to warm up, or somehow less efficient.

Could you elaborate on replacing the burner? Is it too small? I'd rather not build one for the reasons stated above, and there are few opportunities for me to buy, which is why I ended up using the Devil Forge DFP burner. Is the burner that bad? Picture below.

 

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

8 hours ago, OlavFairhair said:

Which manufacturer did you find?

Nordforge 

I tried to read their website but my phone said it couldn’t translate Swedish for some reason 

[Frosty]

They aren't very good but not awful. How far is your burner into your forge now? If the tip of the flame nozzle is more than 1/4" into the refractory liner it needs to be pulled back out till it is. 

Before you light it in that position take a look and see how much un treated ceramic blanket is exposed and rigidize and coat it with a refractory so you aren't breathing vitrified ceramic needles. 

If you can't find water setting refractory or kiln wash at a ceramic supply you can make your own with bentonite clay, (Benton) and water. You can mix it like plaster and trowel in in the forge, let it dry and fire it with the burner. Or you can mix it like slip, about the consistency of thick latex paint and brush or spray it on. Let it dry and fire it with the burner. 

Before you put any coating on your refractory, blanket, bricks, whatever spritz it with clean fresh water, this is known as buttering. The water dilutes the coating slightly so it penetrates the surface through capillarity and runs down fibers till it reaches intersections and cements them together. When you fire the liner the wash vitrifies making it rigid and greatly reduces fiber breakage.

You can make your own kiln wash with fumed silica and water. butter and spritz on. Adding a little food coloring lets you see the coverage so you don't miss spots. It's almost impossible to overdo this kiln wash but that isn't a challenge. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

5 hours ago, OlavFairhair said:

And besides, from what I've read, brick forges will always slower to warm up, or somehow less efficient.

Well, yes and no. Mostly no; that view is mostly incorrect. Can I always create an oval, "D", oe tunnel forge that is more efficient than a box forge? Yes; however, will it be a lot more efficient? NO! Will it be superior enough to offset the limitations built into those other designs? Probably not for a shop forge. If the forge is indended to be move to job sites, they would be. The biggest problem with your present forge is its burner. The second big problem is a hard firebrick floor. Change the burner first, and the floor next. By the time you get around to looking for more improvements, your dissatisfaction will probably not justify bothering with anything further

As to your forge burner, what Frosty said sums it up; "They aren't very good but not awful." It would be easier to explain what is especially right with this burner, rather than list everything they got wrong: nothing is right! No, it isn't awful, but it will never put out those critical last five-hundred degrees needed to bring your forge interior into high incandescence. Without that added input, your forge will remain a mere gas oven; not a radiant oven. That last twenty percent of heat input will double the forge's  working output.

[OlavFairhair]

Thank you Frosty and Mikey for all this information! It's very helpful. I also didn't know of this "buttering" so I appreciate that.

My burner was halfway through the soft brick, meaning it's half a brick plus 1" wool into the forge. So a LOT more than 1/4"! I tried pulling it up as well as removing the thick floor brick and it seemed to heat up faster. Still not 10-minutes-hot though. Although I have a lot of the soft bricks on hand, they don't really last long with all the friction and wear of moving pieces in and out, so I guess I'll have to get some refractory to make up a floor if I want to remedy that. At least if I understand correctly from previous threads I've read is that you guys prefer a little thicker refractory in the bottom to act as floor.

Regarding the burner; thanks for the explanation Mikey. I found another company named BurncraftBG that produces burners in Europe and ships to me. They have a video of the burners (not sure if I can show or link videos here), and it looks powerful, I'm not sure if it's too big? No idea if this is better or even as good as the Devil Forge one. I don't know what assessment you may do from a picture but it looks like this: