Recommendations for entry level folder?

[Hefty]

Hi everyone,

I'm after recommendations from experienced makers, if possible, on what would be the best type of folding knife for my first folder build. Liner lock, friction folder, back lock, etc?

I've made not quite a dozen blades, in different styles, since starting blacksmithing and knifemaking but I have yet to try a folder. I have all the basic tools required (forge, anvil, hammer, angle grinder, cheap belt grinder, files, small drill press, hand drill etc). I'm comfortable with the basics of the processes involved and I have a fair bit of theoretical knowledge and understanding to support this but I want to be realistic about a first folder because I know the fit and finish on the moving parts of the pivot and lock mechanisms add a whole other level of complexity.

So, can any experienced folding knife makers please weigh in and offer your advice/opinion?

Any help greatly appreciated!!

Jono.

[Steve Sells]

A friction folder is the most simple to make

[The Jeff]

I haven't made a folder yet, but I have made a template from mdf to see how everything fits up, moves and how or if the lock works.

I may be way off but that may be a easy starting place, if I'm wrong let me know.

[JHCC]

Take a look at this:

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I'm with Steve, go with simple for the first several then move on to the more complicated.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sails.

[Hefty]

I must admit, I've always been a little hesitant on the idea of a friction folder because I like the blade to be able to lock in place, but I could see in that video that peening the rivet made the friction enough to prevent major slips. It's all in the name, I guess.  

I'll give it a go, and I'll try to remember to post pics when I actually get one done.

Cheers,

Jono.

[templehound]

From my experience a friction folder will not satisfy the hunger....it falls under the category 'better than no knife".

I am recommending a liner lock. Compared to a slip joint and a lock back a liner lock has the he easiest to understand mechanics with the greatest freedom in design.

Here is a video that is compared to many others relatively good, I have to admit I didn't watched it completely

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOUW1eESpj4

I do not recommend the heat treatment with a torch from different reasons.

The second I think that is not the best method is placing wood blocks under the drill press because its unstable and not precise enough.

You can see at 14:25 when he drills the holes for the back spacer, the holes are so big the tubes will fall out by themselfes, pretty unprecise and wobbly.

even if a linerlock mechanic is simple, it still still depends on a certain precision to  ensure a certain stability to ensure the knife is strong and functional.

Carpenters tend to do that but metal workers are educated differently.

....and do not use drill bits for pre construction, because they are tapering to the end.

Cheers

[Frosty]

It isn't the wood block that's causing the wide holes, the arbor bearing on the drill press is worn. At first I thought the wobble in the drill bit was because the bit was bent but all his drill bits have the same wobble so it must be the arbor bearing. 

I use wood on my drill table when I can't use one of the hole to pass the drill bit. I just use newer wood blocks and double check the work is square to the drill bit before I drill.

Still watching, at 8 minutes you'll see the reason the arbor bearing is worn on his drill press. Drill presses do NOT have thrust bearings on the arbors, using them like a mill wears them right out.

[Frosty]

Let's see if it'll merge my signature.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Hefty]

Templehound, I think you're right: a friction folder won't fully scratch the itch, but after seeing the video JHCC posted above, I think I'm going to try one friction folder with farrier rasp steel for the outside/liner/handle piece.

I've already been watching several videos from the InMyShed channel, but I hadn't seen that one yet. I like it! But yes, Frosty, I noticed the issue with his drill press in one of his other videos, too.

I think a liner lock will be my next after the friction folder. I've just recently made my first micarta, so I've got some scale material ready to go.

Now I just need a round tuit, so I can get them done!

Cheers,

Jono.

[Hefty]

Ok, I got some time in the shed this afternoon so I forged out the (very) rough blade shape and ground down the teeth on a piece of farriers rasp and forged it into a handle. I forged it around the blade so tight that I had to drive it off with a punch. Oops!

I love the teeth along the edge of the handle steel. Ready made checkering!

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Some hand sanding on the blade should make it just right.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sails.

[Hefty]

Yep, I've still got plenty of profile grinding and filing to do but hopefully it shouldn't take too much sanding/filing to get a nice sliding fit on the blade thickness. There's still some file texture on the inside of the handle but I ground most of it off. The gap should also be just wide enough that I can file the inside surface down a little as well, if I need it.

[Latticino]

Recommend for your next one that you complete all grinding and heat treatment before you make the handle section.  Then you can form the less time-intensive handle to the blade. I would avoid hot fitting the handle directly to the blade.  A piece of stock sized as close as possible to the riccasso will work better. You are right that you have a bunch of finish work to get that blade where it needs to be, and folders are particularly tricky regarding flat, parallel and centered riccasso as well as blade profile, pivot point...

With both blade and handle being high carbon steel you don't have the luxury that some do to make easy handle adjustments as you would if mild steel or even brass or copper sheet is used for the friction folder handle. In my experience there is a very small difference between too loose and too tight on that pivot.  Also, be careful about scale on the inside of the handle.  If you get a good fit and then it flakes off during extended use you will be disappointed.

Note: I unfortunately have not had a chance to watch either video, so can't comment on the sample designs.

Good luck and I'll look forward to seeing the finished product.

[Hefty]

I made some progress over the weekend but forgot to take photos. I've got the blade pre-ground and heat treated, but I forgot to drill the pivot hole before heat treating  (rookie mistake) so I'll have to do the "wet rag and focused heat" trick to anneal the spot for drilling. Then I'll sneak up on the finished bevels on my cheapie belt sander.

I'd been meaning to buy some needle files for a while now, so I bought some and got the handle spacing right, especially around the pivot area and the short slot in the back. So, the blade fits in place and now the most important thing is getting the position of the pivot just right. I was surprised by how close to the opening side the pivot was in that video.

Photos to come!

Cheers,

Jono.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

A trick my grandfather taught me for spot annealing, is to put a rod or broken drill bit of the correct size in the drill press. Then like you are drilling the steel apply pressure and hold it until the steel heats to red in the area. After it cools it will be easy to drill.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sails.

[Hefty]

That's right! I read that same trick on here somewhere recently but I had forgotten it.

[Hefty]

Welp, I tried spot drilling with a piece of rod but my itty, bitty drill press couldn't get the speed or resist enough pressure to get it hot so I went with the wet rag and torch. I haven't drilled yet though because I'm still checking and double checking where I want to put my pivot point.

Anyway, here are some photos of how it's looking now:

The choil and ricasso area currently look like a can opener because I was hoping to get that point to contact inside and prevent blunting the blade, but I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to actually achieve that, yet, so it may get ground back.

I've even played around with this image in a 2D CAD file to see if I can figure out my pivot point that way. I think I'm almost there. Absolute-worst-case-scenario will be that I have to cut back the handle, re-cut the notch at the top and drill a new pivot point, but don't actually think it will come to that.

Oh, and here's the 2D CAD work I've been toying with for the pivot, in case anyone's interested:

Judging by this I will have to grind down the "can opener"/ricasso area, but I could put a stop pin in to sit nicely in the choil.

[Hefty]

I got the pivot hole drilled! I had to re-sharpen my drill bit but the wet rag and torch got the steel soft enough to drill. I've got a pin loosely inserted for checking the position of the blade and it's looking good so far.

I've done some grinding on the ricasso and the inside of the handle slot where the ricasso was contacting too early and I've got the tip of the blade level with edge of the handle when closed. I'll take a little more off so it is definitely confined when closed and then focus on final grinding and hand sanding the blade and any uncomfortable spots on the handle, then I'll peen the pivot rivet and set the friction to a level I'm happy with.

Really stoked with the progress so far:

Cheers,

Jono.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Looking good to me.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sails.

[Hefty]

Finally got this one finished. The action is almost too tight but I figure it will wear in a little on the rivet over time. Did some grinding on the handle to make it a little more comfy in the hand. I've left the bevels at a worn 120 grit finish because I've given the knife to my son as his utility knife for the carpentry apprenticeship he's just started and I figure it'll get scratched up pretty quick.

[Purple Bullet]

I like it. Good use of a case-hardened farrier's rasp if that is what is was. I have a few more fixed blades to make before I try a folder. Thanks for posting it.

[Hefty]

Thanks PB!

[Jason L]

Nice knife. I'd be happy to carry that. The next one will be even better and the one after that will be better still. Something to consider when making anything at all is the only difference between simple and complicated is the number of parts. As long as you know what shape the parts need to be, you can make anything you want. All you have to do is remove everything that isn't the right shape. Go buy a cheap knife that you like the shape of and take it apart. See what shape all the parts are and copy them. If you're skilled enough with heat treat and you alter the parts that don't work so well, you'll soon have a high quality replica that will beat the original in every way. using existing parts as templates will allow you to create whatever you want. It's all about shaping the metal. Forging, stock removal, it all serves the same goal, turn something into what you want it to be by removing or altering whatever isn't what you want it to be. I say, go for complicated first and see what happens. Worst case scenario, you learn what doesn't work and you can try something different next time. Best case, you make what you want and it works the first time. In either case you haven't lost anything but time and maybe a few dollars worth of materials. Just remember, whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right.

[Frosty]

7 hours ago, Jason L said:

Just remember, whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right.

Henry Ford.

Frosty The Lucky.