ZBarrett Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 Sorry its been awhile since I was on. Life has been not very friendly to my honby. I made a propane forge for forge welding but I can't get it hot enough. I've been tweaking and adjusting my burners and still nothing. The forge chamber size is 5x5.5x11, I have a double burner set up. 9" long pipe with 0.04 might tips. Burner flame looks good, I have the orange dragons breath out the front. Even blocked off I can't get a piece of 1/4" to welding temp. Any help would be appreciated. oh forge is well insulated with 2" of kaowool. Sealed castolight , and coated with its 100ht Sorry forgot to say the burner is 9" 3/4 pipe down to 3/4:1 reducer with threads removed on the 1" side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 Things you can do at this point: (1) Change the burner intakes out for pipe reducers that are larger. I estimate that your present reducers only provide a two to one reduction. You would be better off with a tree to one reduction; this will increase swirl at the air intake to the burner's mixing tubes, providing much better mixing of propane and air. (2) Build a flat washer for each burner's mixing tube, with a a nut welded or brazing it on a flat washer, so that you can use a machine screw through it to put pressure against the mixing tube it slides back and forth on. Use these sliding chokes to control the flow of secondary air into the forge to only what is needed for complete combustion. Uncontrolled secondary air can cool forges down quite a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeJustice Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 Look closely at his picture #2 Mikey, I think that I see just what you are mentioning for your second suggestion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinkertim Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 I think you might have missed Mikey's point, Lee. He is referring to the point on the 9" x 3/4" mixing tube where it goes into the forge, just above the 4 bolts in a cross, used to retain the burner in the forge body, not the washers above the jets which affect the flow of primary air into the top of the burners. There is a gap where the burners meet the forge body and extra secondary air can get into the forge at this point and affect the fuel/air mixture and combustion. Hope that makes it clearer. Tink! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeJustice Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 I see, there are big air gaps all around the mixing tube and holder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 2 hours ago, tinkertim said: There is a gap where the burners meet the forge body and extra secondary air can get into the forge at this point and affect the fuel/air mixture and combustion. Exactly, and it is a pretty large diameter gap, too. What most people don't know is that the flame will induce air into the forge, through that gap, every bit as well as the gas stream induces air into the burner's mixing tube. Most burners end up needing a little secondary air, but those burner openings will allow the passage of a LOT of secondary air, cooling the forge down quite a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 Who's plans did you follow for the burners? What I see is a goodly dose of the "if a little is good more must be better" philosophy. The basic ratio for mixing tube dia. is 8:1 that is 8 x the DIAMETER of the tube. 8x.75 = 6, not 9. The ratio does NOT mean 8". Then comes the "more is better," think and makes it 9". A 9" mixing tube is 1.5 times the optimum length and hurts induction. The nipple screwed into the bell reducer is reducing the intake diameter of the burner reducing induction. The increased depth also reduces induction. Just losing the crud on the intake and mounting the jet and choke bridge directly to the outside edge of the bell reducer will go a LONG way to making it work effectively. If you replace that bell reducer with a 3" x 3/4" bell reducer you'll be styling. Last change Mike hasn't covered nicely above. A 0.040 mig tip is another face of "more is better" causing more harm than good. Most of the old school linear burner Gurus like Ron Reil only messed with gas jets (mig contact tips) larger than 0.025 because they had to change their designs too much to get 0.030" to work effectively. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZBarrett Posted March 29, 2023 Author Share Posted March 29, 2023 I got the basic design from on line. I should of asked more questions before I built the burners. Thank you for all the advice. I'll be hitting up the plumbing store to get a couple new bell reducers and nipples to shorten my mixing tubes. I have already closed up the holders and that helped a lot already. I'll put the .03 mig tips back in as well Thanks again all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 Ask questions BEFORE spending time and money making a thing? Join the club Brother I think everybody who has ever built something has jiggered with it before we knew what we were doing. A good place to start reading is https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/46536-burners-101/ Right here on good old Iforgeiron. No, don't try reading the whole darned thing, we recommend that for folks we don't like. Skim thread titles till you find one you like then skim the post subject lines. You can get as crazy bout reading as you like but you'll find out who knows their stuff and who's trying to be helpful without knowing much. (Yes, I've been both<sigh>) We don't like discouraging folks trying to be helpful but you have to sift the chaff for the nuggets. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 6 hours ago, Frosty said: The basic ratio for mixing tube dia. is 8:1 that is 8 x the DIAMETER of the tube. 8x.75 = 6, not 9. The ratio does NOT mean 8". Then comes the "more is better," think and makes it 9". A 9" mixing tube is 1.5 times the optimum length and hurts induction. I have used nine diameters on three different types of burners, and found it to work better than eight diameters. However, I have never built a "T" burner. I think the rules need to mach up with the various different flows in burners of different designs. And of course It is easier to cut a mixing tube one inch shorter, than to add an inch So, what happens if the mixing tube is a LITTLE shorter than optimum length? Nothing terrible; the flame just isn't as smooth. So, who is right and who is wrong here, doesn't matter to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 Yeah, the original info I got said 8 to 9 x dia. That was throat diameter on a tapered tube but 8or9x works well. Just like short tubes tuning is what really makes them work. Ts are flexible, more so than linears in fact. I developed the T burner from a vacuum pump inducer and had to detune it considerably so making the tube longer or the burner faster is easy, almost harder not to do. Needing to be detuned to work as a burner is why I picked a jet ejector in the first place and the T itself rather than a single intake port in fact. Having lots of intake air available meant I could double the jet size, reduce pressure and put more flammable mixture in the forge per second than a comparable size linear or "sidearm" type ejector. Better than that, the flame is moving much slower so it stays IN the forge longer. All those are a real plus to my greedy little soul but the T is as simple a burner as I could think of and requires the least shop skills and equipment. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 Alas, what I have watched over the last two decades is the best laid plans of equipment designers being complicated by part sellers. I always thought that the less defendant on them the better. But, their steadily deteriorating quality and ever increasing prices are starting to outright tick me off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 Yeah, you see that everywhere check out the road system, interchanges, etc. They used to be pretty straight forward but highway designers have to design SOMETHING to justify a paycheck so a few years ago we got TRAFFIC CIRCLES! Worse than that little bit of idiocy they crammed them into the same space at normal intersections so they're really small, some too small for a through lane. To top it off all that open space couldn't just have grass or pavement, OH NO it's landscaped with "sculptural" rocks so they're not only REALLY bad to hit, you can't see the traffic on the other side of the circle! I HATE bells and whistles! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simian Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 Traffic circles? Do you mean roundabouts? this beauty not far from me has just turned 50 years old! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.J.Lampert Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 Yuk, they have circles to get in the circle inside the circle, just give me a grass trail a pack of food and two horses and I'll see when I see ya M.J.Lampert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 I've driven through roundabouts/traffic circles in the UK many times with only a few misadventures. The ones on the motorways (same as US Interstates) where you are doing it at 50-60 mph are the most interesting besides doing it clockwise rather than the counter clockwise direction in the US. A few times I have missed my "exit" out of the roundabout but have just done another 360 degrees around and got it the 2d time. I really like them as an alternative to a traffic light in a heavy traffic intersection. I would say that a traditional cloverleaf is better if you have the space to build it but if you don't a traffic circle is better than a traffic light controlled, at grade intersection. Also, they can have a "traffic calming" effect on secondary or tretiary streets where folk, for various reasons, have tendency to go faster than they should. GNM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZBarrett Posted April 1, 2023 Author Share Posted April 1, 2023 Well after pricing out materials I have decided to repurpose and build the tried and true Frosty burners following the plans on this wonderful sight. I do also want to say how great this community is. I mean the amount if knowledge and advice that is given is amazing. This really is a tight community. I mean where else can you start a conversation about burners, get help on them and then move into a conversation about roundabouts, which In my area I am in full support. They really have cut the number of severe/fatal accidents on my areas roads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simian Posted April 1, 2023 Share Posted April 1, 2023 Roundabouts Rock I'd also agree about this site being great, and It's members making it so. I've posted a few times and had responses from thousands of miles away (and totally different time zones) within hours, as well as having a conversation with someone thousands of miles away in the opposite direction! The smaller the community (and here in the UK, the Smithing community is tiny) the more important forums like this become. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted April 1, 2023 Share Posted April 1, 2023 I belieive that for good forge information from local forums in England, you need to look into the knife maker community. I believe centuries worth of blacksmith work got melted down for World War Two. The post war work I saw in London was just sad...that doesn't encourage innovation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 1, 2023 Share Posted April 1, 2023 How much is an AMAL burner? There's a LOT to be said about just hooking it up, lighting it and going to work. Hmmmm? The roundabouts I was referring to here are not much larger than the paved center of the one pictured above and you can't see across them. It's the mark of something being "designed" by someone who doesn't know how it works. The thread drifted into a world wide traffic circle as part of overcomplicating working designs to the point of uselessness. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simian Posted April 1, 2023 Share Posted April 1, 2023 (Sorry for the roundabout derail!) The Amal Burner was £62. That included a smaller nozzle & postage here in the UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 I have heard good reports about this burner from buyers. However, beware of the off-brand "sorta kinda like an Amal(s)"; near as I can tell, they are pure junk! And what is the difference; it is all in their metered gas jet; they have one, and the others don't. That jet is what makes this burner work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZBarrett Posted April 2, 2023 Author Share Posted April 2, 2023 So completed my alterations to the burners on the forge. She welds!! Props to the Frosty burners. I was able to salvage the brackets to hold my manifold, and it made tuning the burners easy without having to cut the welding tips. Thanks again for all the help guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 I like your choice of latch. If, you find the need of some secondary air, just drill small holes in those sheet metal covers, one at a time, until you are satisfied with the result. So far, your forge seems to be doing just find without them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 Maybe not how I would've done it but if it works you did it right. Congratulations! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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