My refractory cement melted.

[Buford]

Please forgive my ignorance and the long description. I’m brand new to this forum, to smithing, and to all things dealing with a forge.  I bought a Vevor 3-burner propane forge for my 13 year old son as a Christmas present this year.  He expressed an interest in forging and I was all for anything that would help transition his heart from playing computer games to getting outside and using his hands to create.  Also, thought it would be a great way for us to spend time together.

The forge came with a bag of refractory cement. After reading the instruction manual several times, I began assembling the forge. The instructions didn’t mention what to do with the cement as if it had been thrown in the box as an afterthought.  After trying to do a little research on what the cement was for, I mixed the refractory cement by slowing adding water until creating a paste like I would for concrete. I covered up all of the ceramic fiber in the forge body. The bag said to wait 12 hrs before using the forge which didn’t seem like enough time. I put a box fan on it for 5 days.  Probably overkill but I wasn’t in a hurry seeing as it was a Christmas present and it wasn’t Christmas yet.  Everything looked great so I finished assembling the forge, checked for leaks, and fired up.  All seemed to be working great.

After Christmas my son and I went out to ‘play’.  We fired it up and started working on a pre-cut set tongs that I bought that required a little forging to put together. Thought that would be a good first project.  We ran the forge for maybe an hour and a half.  At that point, I noticed that a portion of the refractory cement had melted down from the top of the forge underneath  the middle burner.  There was a small puddle of cement on the brick under that burner.  All that to ask:

What did I do wrong?  I didn’t know that cement could melt like that. Am I running the forge too hot? 

At one point, I even shut off the third burner because I was only using the front portion of the forge. To conserve gas…  I now know that the heat will travel up the unused burner like a chimney and melt all the seals which created a lot of gas leaks.  That probably would have been an important safety tip to mention in the instruction manual.  Needless to say, we haven’t fired up since.  After quite a bit of back and forth with the Chinese manufacturer, they agreed to send a new forge. Same model.  
 

Obviously, I’ll be keeping all the burners lit while using the forge to avoid that part from happening again.  That’s the easy part.

However,  I have no idea what happened to the refractory cement. I want to learn from my mistakes.  Do you have any suggestions as to what I should do differently to avoid melting the cement?

Attached are some pictures.

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome from the Ozark mountains. I think they supplied the wrong refractory. Refractory cement is used ti hold fire bricks together, not withstand the flame face of propane burners. What should have been sent is castable refractory. I don't think you did anything wrong according to their instructions.

[M3F]

A few thoughts...

I wouldn't say you did anything "wrong." This journey is going to be a lot of trial and error. I would buy satanite refractory and not use what they send to Irondragon's point and I would also coat the refractory with ITC 100HT after it dries.

To your question about running the forge too hot the answer is no BUT you may have run it too hot too soon. The moisture in the cement needs to be cooked off to prevent cracks and blowouts.

The next time you set it up even after letting the cement air dry, run all the burners the 1st time just enough to warm up the cement, you'll see a bit of steam coming out of the front and back of the forge.  Shut it down, wait till it cools and then run it again a little hotter, repeat the process till there isnt steam then fire it up full blast and let it cool overnight then you'll be good to go.

As to what you said about the chimney affect that shouldn't be an issue.  There are no rubber seals.  Do you mean the top of the burner where the gas line connects got hot enough to melt the end of the gas line?  You should be able to run that forge with any one of those burners so if there's some kind of leak or melting anything you have bigger issues. 

Finally, to conserve gas, close off the back of the forge with fire brick and run just the middle or just the front burner or both depending on the size of the piece your heating up. You won't need to run all 3 till you start getting into forge welding. 

[LeeJustice]

Maybe you did not "butter" the ceramic blanket before applying the refractory?  Then it may have delaminated to leave it hanging in a 3000 degree breeze?

"Buttering" is spritzing the blanket with water so that the face of it is not so dry that it sucks much of the moisture out of the refractory, causing problems.

On the third burner, when you had it off, did you leave the choke fully open or closed?  I learned with my Mr. Volcano to just remove the burner immediately upon shutting the burner off.  Yes, I melted the gas line off.  I had it partly closed off with the choke open.  I was cleaning up and soon found the gas line on the floor, melted off from the fitting at the burner.  The instructions tell you that the forge should not be closed off and the choke should be closed.  Nevertheless, I just remove it immediately, as it is held tight with a thumbscrew, which makes for easy, quick removal.

[ThomasPowers]

What did the company that made it say?

[Buford]

Good afternoon.  Thank you for your responses. 
 

Yall mentioned castable refractory. Is satinite refractory a brand name of castable refractory or a different product all together? Also, after applying castable refractory and allowing it to dry; should I slowly introduce the heat as was mentioned earlier for cooking off moisture out of the cement or does it need a totally different process? If so, would I do that before or after applying ITC 100HT?  I definitely did not “ butter” the blanket prior to applying the refractory cement.  Would that  process be advisable when working with the castable refractory as well?

As for the third burner issue, I turned the gas completely off to that burner and I still had the choke set to halfway open as the instructions suggested.  When the forge was running with all 3 burners set to half choke, the flames were coming out of both ends about 2 inches which seemed acceptable based on a few videos I saw.  After shutting off the gas to the third burner, after a little while I began to smell burning plastic. That’s when I realized that the plastic choke sleeve had discolored as well as the rubber handle on the gas value above that burner was beginning to melt. At that point, I shut the forge down completely.  After everything cooled down, I noticed that the handle on the gas value was now very loose and sloppy when at first it was fairly tight upon opening and closing. Not sure if there might have been some sort of rubber seal inside the ball valve itself?? On the other 2 burners there is blue ring in the nut holding the valve handle on. That ring is gone from the third burner.  At first I was frustrated for making a bonehead move that simply messed up the aesthetics of a brand new product.  It wasn’t until later while demonstrating the forge for a friend when I realized that a LOT of gas was leaking all around the valve at the top of the third burner.  I shut down immediately. I don’t know if there was enough heat to cause all the connections to expand too much?? My guess is that the manufacturer used a glue/rubber substance on the threads of the connections when assembling the valve and connecting it to the bridge. When it got hot all that stuff liquified thereby compromising the connections. Again just a guess…  I’ll attach some pics at the bottom.  I definitely like the ideas of simply removing the third burner and using brick to close that area off when I don’t need it. Sounds like an easy fix all around.  I’m starting to wonder that if I had simply closed the choke completely on the third burner like a chimney flue, I might have eliminated the draw and forced the heat out the sides of the forge. Just a thought…

 

Finally, as for the company’s response; at first they offered to replace the missing parts. I explained that there were no missing parts and that I had a performance issue.  They said the cement melted because I ran the forge before the 12 hr drying time was done. After I told them I waited 5 days to run they simply offered to send a new ceramic blanket.  Being a absolute beginner at all this, the thought of rebuilding a brand new forge didn’t sound appealing and definitely beyond my current knowledge base. They never addressed the gas leaks or the lack of instructions. We were asking for a complete refund. However, when they offered to send a complete new replacement forge, I felt it would be a little greedy to refuse.  However, I don’t want the same issues to happen again which had landed me on this forum.   Thanks again for your expertise and insights.

 

 

 

 

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Buford, glad to have you. First, you did NOT do anything wrong. Satanite is a refractory cement/mortar and isn't suitable for a flame face refractory.  HWI, the manufacturer's response to complaints about it melting, spalling, etc. is that is is NOT a refractory, it's mortar formulated for laying brick or other refractories say sticking kaowool to the side of a stove or the brick in your fireplace.

The orange sleeve on the burners is the choke, used for adjusting the air fuel ratio. Mark where it is with a scratch so you can return them to the same position so you don't have to learn how to adjust for a neutral burn. We'll cover that later if you wish. Once marked, simply slide the choke so it covers the air intake holes in the burner when you turn it off. This will prevent flames from being blown up through the shut down burner and is a good idea when you turn the forge off at the end of a session to prevent the "Chimney effect" of forge HOT gasses raising through the burners like chimneys.

When you get the replacement forge buy another refractory rather than using that . . . crud. Maybe use it in an outdoor firepit or something that doesn't get very hot. Kastolite 30-li is sold by the Iforge store in smaller quantities for reasonable. Kastolite IS good for 3,000f and is reasonably flux resistant though if you plan on making forge welds you'll want to pick up a good kiln wash as a final layer of armor against flux and heat.

The downside of Kastolite is the stuff will not just brush on, it's gritty and is hard to move under a trowel.

Frosty The Lucky.

[M3F]

"Buttering" the ceramic fiber and the cook off process are good for whatever refractory you use. 

If it were me I'd get a full refund, and buy a different forge. I use a 2 burner Hell's Forge and it has served me well.  It's plenty of forge.  You can use the products they send for noe and that'll give you the opportunity to get forging w/o having to diagnose and rebuild a brand new forge.  You can worry about different refractory and reflective coating like ITC 100HT down the road. 

The only reason I say that is because IMO there shouldn't be plastic anything on a forge. Those plastic sleeve chokes are pretty concerning. Those areas get damn hot. You should be able to run your forge at welding temp, shut down and not have to worry about removing burners or melting propane lines. 

To be clear about closing the ends of the forge off to conserve heat you can put firebrick there as a "wall."  You can do that with the forge running full blast. 

If that's not an option then you have to re-line the forge and start over. Satanite has worked just fine for me and it was $22. The ITC 100HT was $28. I let the satanite air dry, apply the 100HT, let it air dry then cook off the moisture and I'm up and running the next day. 

I've had melting lines before and it was because I tried replacing the burners that were different than what came with the forge. (maybe they were less quality I don't know)  I put the stock burners back on and have never had the problem again.

So again it's just my opinion but with plastic pieces, burners conducting enough heat after shut down to melt the gas lines and melting refractory I'd swap to a different model and chalk it up as a learning experience. 

[Frosty]

Sorry I missed the choke sleeve being plastic, that makes it a total non-starter. Plastic or rubber in the valves is another strike against the product. That forge is sounding less desirable all the time. I think I'd be after a full refund and buy a better forge.

No. Satanite is NOT A REFRACTORY. It is a high temperature MORTAR. Below is a cut and paste from ""Harbison Walker International" the manufacturer of Satanite. There is or was a section with messages from people asking questions or complaining about their products. The HWI representative was pretty short and adamant about Satanite being a mortar and having NO BUSINESS in flame contact, let alone HWI replacing failed furnace liners. 

Please note in the product description below it clearly says, "mortar" and not once, here or the more detailed application descriptions is "refractory" used. Ever.

If you want something easy to apply, as in brush on, buy Plistex or Matrikote. Apply it in many thin coats allowing it to dry completely between applications and butter first each time. These are high alumina kiln washes and will NOT melt at any temp an air propane burner can reach. Unlike Satanite.

Frosty The Lucky.

PRODUCTS

SATANITE

A dry, heat-setting, high alumina mortar

SAFETY DATA SHEETS (SDS)

[M3F]

I just looked up info on the product. It is labeled satanite refractory mortar. Uses include sealing the lining of your forge or as a coating to produce hamons.

If what your saying is correct, how can anyone that uses this product run a forge without any issues?

[Frosty]

No problems eh? What do you call the melted globs of Satanite hanging from the above forge? I've seen similar an awful lot of times to believe anyone else is using it with no problems at all. The company that makes the product says it is NOT a refractory and empirical evidence for years says it isn't. 

I could SAY lots of things but will stick with, I'm glad you've had good luck with it.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[M3F]

With all due respect I think you may be set in your ways on some topics.  Of course people are going to have issues with every product. They're people. 

If I'm saying I use it and others use it without any issues and it's described uses are there as plain as day, how can you be so definitive in saying it has no business being used?

[Buzzkill]

Satanite is basically clay.  It's not water setting.  It is cured by heat.  In thick layers it will generally crack/curl, and it's not very insulating.   It's intended use is for joining high temperature bricks.  The manufacturer is pretty clear about that.

From the manufacturer Data Sheet:

"Uses: Can be used to lay dense 50%, 60%, and 70% alumina brick, as well as 2800°F (1538°C) and 3000°F (1650°C) rated insulating
firebrick."

That's all the manufacturer says about uses.  It certainly doesn't indicate that it should be used as the main surface for direct flame contact. It appears a lot of people do use it to seal fiber blankets and it's also commonly used on knife blades to assist in creating hamons.

If you use it as a flame face and have good results that's great, but there are better materials for forge chambers that are roughly the same cost.  Why not use (or recommend) a product better suited to the application? The same manufacturer makes water setting insulating high alumina bubble castable refractory 

[Frosty]

I AM set in my ways, a tool has a purpose, if it doesn't fill it or well I say so. I try hard not to base my opinions on anecdotal evidence let alone hearsay. I spent years thinking Satanite was a good flame face refractory until Iforge members started reporting problems with their forges melting and posting pictures. Cracking and spalling is usually a matter of improper application, not allowing enough dry time before heat curing is a major cause of cracking and buttering before application mitigates spalling. These are common but fading problems. Melting has ZERO to do with either, it is a simple result of exceeding the melting temperature of a material. PERIOD. So I actually did some REAL research even if it was minimal, I went to the source and read the product data and the MSDS. I spent too long on HWI's looking for Satanite info and there is almost none. I stumbled on the questions in, IIRC, a problem solving area and the evidence of melting failures plus adamant statements from the maker that it is a high temperature mortar NOT a flame face refractory is definitive. 

For the past couple few years I've been discommending the use of Satanite based on hard current evidence, not opinion. "Everybody knows" and "It's a well known fact," etc. are red flag indicators of unfounded opinion.

Another of the ways in which I'm set is the desire to BE right, not think I am. I welcome having my mistakes corrected, I am genuinely grateful. It does require good evidence though. A perfect and embarrassing example is my long standing opinion of ITC-100. It was based on personal experience in my own forges but recently I was linked to sites with empirical evidence that the product's formula had changed and I'd been embarrassingly wrong for a number of years. I not only admit my mistakes I wasn't and am never ashamed to say so and publicly. It's embarrassing to go so long without updating my opinion. When things change they change, denying it does no good.

One of my other quirks is the attempt to dispell problematical myths like the myth that Satanite makes a good forge liner. If you like it, by all means use it, it's your shop but PLEASE stop recommending it, it does NOT work. Not with HOT burners anyway. Just look at the above picture of MELTED Satanite.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Buford]

Thank you all the insight.  For a beginner all this is quite confusing… 

 I know this might be a dumb question, but why wouldn’t these forge manufacturers send these types of BEGINNER forges with the “proper/tested” materials already installed inside the forge body? I purchased on the lower end because I’m not pretending to be a professional. I’m essentially dipping my toe into the blacksmithing waters as a hobby and more importantly a way to spend quality time with my son. Where it goes from there…who knows…time will tell.  We are genuinely excited about getting into smithing.  As with every trade there are entry level products up to commercial grade. I understand that some more advanced folks would want to tinker with different types of burners, coatings, washes, etc.   No disrespect intended but it also sounds like everyone has 5 differing opinions. LOL  But for a brand new guy, it’s a little overwhelming.  As a result, I’ve been spending the last month since Christmas trying to figure out what I did wrong to jack up the forge, how to get restarted, and keep my boy from getting discouraged on the whole things before we have a chance to even get our feet wet.  

I was reading some of the forum discussions on the Kastolite. Is it really supposed to be submerged in water for up to 7 days in order to cure? Then 30 hrs of ramping up the temp by 100deg an hour?  That seems crazy!  Does more gas equal higher temp? I’ve just turned all three burners on wide open from the get go.

I guessing from all the discussions, the primary goal is to seal the ceramic fibers in so we don’t die.  Is a ridgidizer necessary prior to the refractory then a final kiln wash coat? I’m also guessing that if I just put a bunch of coats of kiln wash that it would create a weak ‘skin’ and I would run the risk of poking holes into the ceramic fiber. Is Plistex and ITC 100HT both kiln washs? I had my fire bricks under each burner per the instructions manual (see number 5 in the pic below) Again no mention in the manual of coatings of any kind… just a bag of refractory cement thrown in the box.  I’m guessing the bricks would help to protect the ‘skin’ created by multiple layers of kiln wash but then I read that the fire bricks are a heat sink and should not be in the forge if I want to maximize my heat efficiency.  

Sorry for the ignorance, just trying to wrap my head around all this while sucking on a firehouse of information… I do sincerely appreciate the information. Thank you all for your time!

[LeeJustice]

I looked at the Vevor site for that forge.  I could find no reference to what the supplied refractory actually is.  How did you learn that it is Satanite?

On 2/2/2023 at 1:13 PM, Buford said:

I definitely did not “ butter” the blanket prior to applying the refractory cement.  Would that  process be advisable when working with the castable refractory as well?

Yes, that was a mistake and yes, do that with any castable refractory, and any additional ITC100, plistix, IR reradiating, protective top layer.

[Les L]

Buford, when I wanted to see if a gas forge was a good option for me as another tool to use other than my coal forge I purchased one of the inexpensive entry level forges like you did, it also came with satinite to use. My opinion of the products supplied to complete the forge is it’s a lower priced forge because they use lower quality products to keep the price down. I assembled my forge according to the very detailed directions supplied with it and had constant problems with the satinite cracking and the forge not achieving the heat that it should. To correct the problems I followed the information that Frosty, Iron Dragon, Mickey and several others on this site has supplied from their testing and use of quality products to build a good forge and relined my forge based on their recommendations of proper products to use.  After doing this I have not had any problems in the last four months of heavy use, including using it to forge weld 12 wrapped eye tomahawks one week. My advice is for you to spend a little time reading some of the posts here, like forges 101, and it won’t take you long to see who you need to go to for proper advice on how to take care of a problem. 

[Buford]

Thank you.  
 

I will read that section next… thank you. That’s why I’m here… to learn and do it better this time.  

For the record, I referred to the supplied product as refractory cement because that was what was written on the bag in the box. I didn’t know what Satinite was until I found this forum.  I think someone else may have mentioned/ inferred that it was Satinite.  
 

[LeeJustice]

I have some doubts that it is Satanite.  My forge does not look that color and yours also looks to have maybe some larger clumps in it.  Not consistent with my limited experience with using Satanite.

[Buford]

It definitely has aggregate in it.

 

[M3F]

You'll find that of you ask 5 blacksmiths a question you'll get 8 different answers.

The bottom line is not all forges are created equally. What works for me may not for another person and visa versa. I think what we all can agree on is you bought an unusable product due to the plastic components.  Not your fault, shame on them for selling it hoping to scam beginners. 

I think the easiest thing for you to do, to just get forging with your son, is to buy a different model and use their materials. I've never had an issue with my Hells Forge and their customer service is very good.  You don't need to follow all these crazy detailed methods with kastolite and SATANITE and everything else. The only thing you have to do is seal the ceramic fiber with A refractory so your not breathing it in. 

Read up on the subject while your forging for when you need to re-line it down the road. You'll find after you gain experience that you want your forge to perform a certain way and you'll know what to buy then, but for now a 2 burner or even a 1 burner forge from a better company will do just fine.

Let us know how it goes and good luck!

 

[BsnNFrnt]

Buford. To speak to your situation with the forge - I lurked in this site for 3 years before I ever purchased one item for my journey. 3 years before I bought and anvil. When my meager skills outpaced my forge capacity it was still another 2 year’s research building a forge. 8 years in and I have a forge that can melt steel (built by hand other than the blower)- just a little bit shy of a one decade “overnight” success story. 
I say that to say the improvements you make in the build to the goal are worth it - you will get it. 

[Mikey98118]

Up until recently, "refractory cement" always meant refractory brick mortar. Now, some refractory cement (that also state "castable" somewhere on the package) are able to stand up to contact by flames. However, most of these are only use rated between 2000 F and 2600 F. Furthermore, they cost as much as the right castable refractories, like Kast-O-lite 30; which is use rated to 3000 F.

In other words, there still ain't no such thing as something for nothing.

[M3F]

Any updates Buford?  Curious how you made out.

[Buford]

Nothing to report at the moment. Kids’ schedule got crazy lately.  Son’s archery team made it to the state tournament and daughter’s colorguard team is competing every other weekend. Good times, but busy.  

Been continuing to read on the forum and taking notes in order to consolidate the nuggets I come across for quick reference. I recall reading something but can’t remember who made the comment and in which discussion.

Basically, the company had already sent a brand new forge to replace the first. Therefore, I’m gonna treat the fabric utilizing the tips and products you guys have mentioned here.  If I still run into issues then I’ll scrap it and purchase a better, smaller forge.  Next step is to get it measured up so I can order the supplies.

Thank you for the follow up!