ADHD Newb hobbyist

[jtyson]

Yeah I’ll stick around, just see that a lack of quotes leaves a potential for confusion and the people I’m attempting to talk to not being notified, but hey their house their rules I guess. 

So what is TPAAAT?

All the bolts I have are black iron. It’s leftovers from a brand new build. They are from the Amazon that they are putting up in Los Lunas. I got to haul off a bunch of leftover structural steel that was headed to the dumpster. Included in that was a ton of hardware. I kept all the bent plate, angle, box tube, plate, dowels, etc. I was gonna trash the hardware and a couple hundred pieces of 4x4x.5x12” long angle with pre drilled holes for scrap price. The rods I have are about 14” long and 3/4” not 1” as I thought previously. Please let me know if you can think of anything that I’m potentially going to throw out that may be more useful or valuable elsewhere. I’m all about being thrifty. 

[Frosty]

Yeah, we all get moderated once in a while, so long as it doesn't happen very often you're just one of the gang. Try not to let the email message awarding you zero points that never expire get to you. It's a part of the operating system Iforge uses and has nothing to do with the forum admin, they can't change it. When a mod deletes or edits a post the notices go out automatically, they give a few words of explanation in the thread out of courtesy.

Excessive bandwidth has already been explained.

How confused do you think we are that posts in a thread might befuddle us? Are you thinking I may be talking to anybody but you? 

Sorry, sometimes I'm pretty hard on bandwidth myself.

I don't know which refractory the msds is for but it looks good to me, I'd be willing to give it a try. It has a higher alumina % than what I'm currently using, "Kastolite 30 li" and it wouldn't take long to determine if I could add evacuated silica spherules to improve it's insulating properties. Those are the "bubbles" in bubble refractories like Kastolite and are commonly available at concrete batch plants and some gravel suppliers. Zirconium silicate is commonly available online or through ceramic / pottery suppliers.

Plistex is available in reasonable quantities for reasonable at the Iforge store, the link is at the top of the page. It fires coffee cup hard and is high alumina so it resistant to abrasion damage and caustic erosion. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[jtyson]

In my years on various forums I’ve always found that the most direct and clear approach nets the best results. I never assume the “audience” is interested in deciphering which part of my rambling is intended to be a response to them or directed at them without directly @ them or quoting. If this group here is able to carry on a discussion without that, this place will definitely be the exception to the rule in my experience. 

Sorry for the lack of clarity on the SDS sheets. The top one is for Mizzou Castable Plus and the bottom is a generic sheet for all the thermal ceramics mortar family and I put red boxes around the smoothset dry which is what I have. Basically the same numbers between both with the exception of the silica and alumina being opposites. The Smoothset at 56% silica and 38% Alumina while the Mizzou is only 32.6% silica and much higher at 60.6% alumina. I am not a chemist and I don’t really know what all that means. If I’m being totally honest, when comparing notes and deciding to buy the Smoothset, I had flipped the numbers and thought that they were nearly the same and just a few points off each, rather than being flipped. I know that alumina is aluminum oxide and silica is basically sand but their functions in the end product I don’t know. I’ve got a very minor grasp on the what, and basically zero concept of the how. If you understand more and are inclined to give a layman’s description I’d be interested in learning, but don’t expect it by any means. You seem far more knowledgeable than I am so if you think it is suitable and not something I should toss aside and just bite the bullet and order Mizzou or something else, then I’ll run with it. 

As for adding the “bubbles” as you say, is that really beneficial when just using the mortar as a rigid layer on top of the ceramic blankets anyway? Or is that more appropriate when casting a mortar-only forge? 

I had seen Plistix and Metrikote mentioned elsewhere as well. I was never able to find a clear answer as to what was better between those and the ITC100 and I believe I chose the ITC because it was the most expensive - and not by a small margin, and thus I figured must be the best. 

So regarding the bandwidth thing, do you guys not share a lot of photos? I’m very much a picture person myself. Or are hosted photos from another platform better? 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

We love and share pictures a lot. We just have to be sure and resize them so they don't take a lot of bandwidth & data. There are a couple of threads about that. This one is about the gallery but applies to the forum as well. When you upload a picture and insert it in the post, you can double click on the picture and a popup box appears allowing resize. I usually select 500x375 checking the box that says retain the original aspect (or something like that).

TPAAAT is about finding anvils but applies to anything you are looking for and believe me it works a treat.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/268-tpaaat-applied-anvil-acquisition-technique/

Edited July 9, 2022 by Irondragon ForgeClay Works

[ThomasPowers]

I've been online in blacksmithing groups from around 1990, (rec.crafts.metalworking, keenjunk, neotribal metalsmiths, anvilfire and IFI), most if not all of them predate the use of the "at sign" by a decade of more.  So I guess you should be telling social media that they have got it wrong...Popularity does not make something "right".

If I can't figure out a reply I can just read up in the thread until it becomes clear.   As this site is not a company owned site but paid for by an individual, he gets to make the rules.  Nobody is required to participate here and unlike commercial sites *you* are not a commodity being sold.

Now if you are willing to "go with the flow" here, it is an immense resource.  Learning how to effectively search can really speed things up. Example  if I use my Chrome browser and search on: TPAAAT site:iforgeiron.com  I get 429 hits *all* specific to IFI, no paid ads, bogus posts, etc.   Like the "at" issues the search function imbedded in IFI's software is not the greatest, shall we say...go with your browser's search function!

[George N. M.]

J, I very rarely use the quote function.  If I want to address what I'm saying to a specific person, rather than the entire audience, I just use a name/handle as I did at the beginning of this sentence.

BTW, TPAAAT is the "Thomas Powers Applied Anvil Acquisition Technique" and consists of asking nearly every living human being you encounter if they know of any anvils you might be able to get.  It works surprisingly well and is applicable to all kinds of things.  You almost always have better results than Craigslist, want ads, auction sites, etc..

IFI is a pretty unique community, in my experience.  We have folk of all genders, ages from early teens to late 70s, education from HS dropouts to advanced degrees, blacksmithing experience from total newbies to folk who have been doing it for decades, hobbiests and professionals, and just about any variable.  Wisely, controversial subjects such as politics, religion, sex, etc. are prohibited.  If sure that the community's opinions on those are as far ranging as everything else.  However those topics tend to split and fracture a group rather than pull them together.  Also, language is strictly G rated.  Never say anything you would need to explain to a 10 year old daughter or grand daughter.

[Frosty]

Iforge has a learning curve that sometimes changes without warning so we're all on it. The forum has more than 60,000 subscribed members in around 150 countries around the world, many with dial up and pay for data. We try to make it as economical as possible for them. Yeah, we love pictures but try to hold the file sizes as low as reasonable for the above reason. A picture is worth 1k words, yes?

I'll drop the Iforge get to know it stuff so as not to dog pile you.

Some basics about refractory chemistry from a guy who never got better than a D in hi school chemistry. 

Most common refractories including fire brick, hard and insulating, ceramic wool blanket, castables, etc. are silicate bonded. Borax the base for almost all forge welding fluxes is an alkali and is caustic at welding temperatures. Silica dissolves in caustics so molten welding flux dissolves fire brick and goes through un protected Kaowool like hot water through cotton candy. 

Alumina bonded ceramics couldn't care less about caustic environments, dip it in a vat of boiling borax indefinitely and it's just fine. 

That is the reasoning behind the desirability of high alumina refractories, forge welding doesn't erode the liner so they last longer. 

An insulating outer liner is highly desirable for two main reasons, it keeps the heat you pay for where it can work for you longer and secondly it keeps the outside of the forge from getting so hot you can't touch it or it lights fires. Yes? Oh okay, there's a 3rd. main reason, it lets the interior reach working temps fast and doesn't burn a lot of fuel keeping it that way.

Unfortunately the best blanket refractory is gossamer delicate at forging temps so it needs protection. My earliest propane forge used straight Kaowool and lasted almost two sessions and less than a second the first time I tried a forge weld. Rigidizing makes it stiffer so it's not like stacking books on marshmallows it also encapsulates the fibers and helps keep them out of your lungs.

What we've found works best are two layers of 1", 8lb refractory blanket, usually ranging in the 2,600f range. Rigidizing improves the function as above. Then a coat of castable hard refractory in the 3,000f range provides armor and a thermal barrier to prolong the blanket's life. ceramic blanket can only take really high temps so long before it vitrifies and loses strength and insulating qualities. Dies. This is why making the hard refractory an insulator is a good thing, it means you won't have to reline your forge as often besides being more thermally efficient.

Another good reason for the bubbles is it makes the inner liner, (Flame face) heat up faster and get hotter increasing IR re-radiation which is what makes a reverberatory furnace work. The flame heats the forge liner the radiated IR heats your work. 

A kiln wash is a final layer of armor and can be done without if you use a good enough refractory, Mizzou and from what I can see Smoothset are high on the list. However a good kiln wash is a thin layer that conducts energy poorly and so retains it longer, gets HOTTER and passes it to the next layer more slowly. It radiates more energy back into your forge faster, the IR is hotter "Brighter actually."

And as a last lily gild we have Zirconium as you find in ITC-100. Zirconium has a high melting temp, 1850c, is a really poor thermal conductor an is chemically dang near inert. ITC-100 does what it was designed to do very well, nothing sticks to it mechanically or chemically and what little does comes off because ITC is friable, it just rubs off. 

Unfortunately Plistex contains ZERO zirconium but is otherwise a superior kiln wash for a propane forge. One of these days I'd like to try mixing Plistex and zirconium flour and see if I can't have the best of both worlds. Other guys here have had excellent results with a mixture of 97% Zircopax and 3% bentone a type of bentonite. Zirconium flour needs a binder or it won't do us a lot of good. Bentonite is a really high fire vitrifying clay and it's insidious, it gets on and sticks to everything Zirconium seems to like it. 

That's basically it, the kiln wash protects the hard refractory from abrasion and high temp chemical erosion while slowing heat transfer, the hard refractory provides mechanical strength that will withstand the temps and protects the insulating refractory blanket from, thermal, chemical and mechanical damage.

That's a brief gross description of the chemistry, what's and whys of the best forge liner we've come up with so far. We are always listening and more than happy to adopt and adapt new good ideas.

If you have . . . (did I just say IF?) questions give a shout.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jtyson]

I don’t use a computer very often, most of my access will be from my iPad or iPhone. Playing with the photos, there is no way to double click it but it pops up and gives a resize option, but not by DPI or pixel dimensions just small, medium, large and original with associated size. This is a medium photo of my anvil. If you guys see it on your end and it’s too small, the next photo I upload I’ll try the large size. The SDS sheets I uploaded earlier were original size because I couldn’t figure out the double click bit then and didn’t notice the resize option. 

In 1990 I was 3, so safe to say you’ve got me there. I’m a big fan of all the tech advances that make communication online simpler, but I do realize they take away from the human part of communicating. The @ function isn’t really “right” as you say anyway. On here where things are likely pretty low traffic when more personal connection, it would probably be a waste anyway. But on Instagram or Twitter, when you’re posting amongst a feed of thousands or more, without that tagging function for people or hash tagging for topics, it would be total chaos. So I guess everything has its place. 

I don’t typically use google chrome but I’ll try to remember to give that a go for searching. Because when I just googled tpaaat without the site direction code, I got absolutely nothing that made any sense. I do get the drift of the method. I may have to start trying that. I guess I sort of do that now, but not necessarily quite as forward in asking everyone I come across. I leverage my work connections more than anything. 

I did notice the lack of monetization on the site other than the giant floating banner at the bottom of my screen and donator buttons. I can appreciate that. Bringing value without the commercial aspect that typically accompanies forums. I typically end up a contributor or donator on any forum I join that I spend any amount of time on as that is usually how you get rid of the ads. 

I have no issue avoiding controversial topics. When I come to a forum, I’m generally there for discussion about the topics relating to that forum, not just as a chat room. I’ll have to actively try to watch my language. Generally speaking online I don’t speak poorly, but in person, well that is a different story. 

Here is a smaller photo size for reference 500x375 same kB Mod 30

Edited July 9, 2022 by Mod30
add second photo for size ref.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I would say the picture is acceptable, It's 640x480 and 68.8 Kb and loaded fast on my slow internet. might try the small one next but not larger.

[Frosty]

You're doing fine at least you aren't arguing about everything. We'll explain what we can if we can, somethings just are. . . <sigh>

Thomas used Google Chrome as an example, it's what he runs it wasn't a suggestion YOU use Google anything. Same as when we say Google it, it's become a common term for do a web search. When I say, "use your resident search engine and add Iforge to the terms it will search Iforgeiron.com first and you won't get the flood of ads." It's just a longer way of saying the same thing. Thomas uses Socratic Method, analogy and metaphor a lot, it's not personal it's just how he instructs folk. And believe me he has a LOT to teach anybody. 

The SDS were okay though linking the pages would save bandwidth. I'm not saying you should've thought of that and you didn't waste bandwidth, you answered a direct question in what I consider the best way, with straight data. I would've linked the pages but I've been hanging out here for years so it comes naturally to me.

You're going to fit right in here, disagreements are good things we learn more from those than agreements. New info is good info. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[George N. M.]

We used to say in law school, which largely uses the Socratic Method is that it assumes that all teachers are Socrates (or Thomas) and all students are Aristotle.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[ThomasPowers]

Where's my Hemlock smoothie!    (I have a CIS degree and so avoid FB, Twit, etc as I know too much. IFI is about as much of a "social media" as I can tolerate.)

J, did you see that propane tank I found at the scrapyard today that looks like someone was trying to build a forge from it.  (Wayne Coe's website has instructions for making one that way...)

[anvil]

My thoughts exactly. 

I built my first forge from the bottom of an old cast iron water heater. Not a propane tank, but similar.

[jtyson]

I haven’t had the time to do much of anything this week for myself as I’ve been on the road and in the field for work. First time I have looked at this thread since last weekend. Admittedly I haven’t ventured out beyond this thread either. I’m not sure where everyone congregates on here but maybe if I have some down time at the desk today I’ll spend it cruising around and seeing what day to day posting looks like. 

I’ve seen all sorts of different cylindrical items used for forges. I’ve got a handful of things at the house I can use but haven’t decided on what yet. I’ve got a few propane tanks. Have an old argon cylinder. Have a couple kegs. The one that I’ve been eyeing the most is this air filter purifier thing I snagged at an auction to resell that I haven’t been able to. I don’t know dimensions off the top of my head, but I’d guess its about 16-18” in diameter and about 2’ tall. My thought was 2-3 layers of the 1” ceramic blanket, then use either sonotube or some leftover scrap utility pipe I can snag from work in the 8-12” range and shape that into a round area with one side flat that would be the floor and then basically cast the smoothset around the tube. Fab up doors and pour them solid. BUT….I need to do more research about volume/area of the inside of the forge. I don’t want to limit myself with something too small, but I don’t want to build something so oversized that it won’t heat proper or will waste a ton of fuel getting up to temp. 

[Jobtiel1]

When I first got here I marked the whole forum as read, so that the blue thingy on the right of a thread pops up whenever someone posts something, good way to see where the activity is.

~Jobtiel

[Latticino]

For the air filter shell:  16" - 4" (for the two layers of 1" blanket) gets you an ID of 12".  You will want to limit your shell thickness as much as possible (say 3/4" max) since it is currently a "hard" refractory (like Mizzou) rather than an insulating one (like Kastolite 30).  The high alumina content of Mizzou is certainly preferable, even better would be Greencast 97.  If you have never cast refractory before, it isn't all that easy to ram into a 3/4" thick shell, but it is possible.  To be able to remove the inner form you will need both a release and method of reducing it's diameter.  I also used a sonotube when I cast my Kastolite shell at around 3/4" thickness, but cut a slice out of it and put in a flat section for the floor with tape, so I could remove it after the refractory set.  Fortunately these refractories don't shrink a lot while drying, but if you don't preplan to remove the inner form you will regret it.

Mizzou doors will be effective, but heat sinks as well.  Heat sinks are a balancing act.  Good on one hand as they act like "heat batteries" when you open a forge door or put in a mass of cold steel, bad as they take longer to heat up to forging temperatures (thermal mass) and reduce the overall insulation skin value of an equivalent forge liner that used a castable insulating refractory.

You have made the typical forge designer mistake of making your first forge a bit oversized.  We all typically go that route.  Two issues with this:  use of excess fuel and lack of ability to heat effective sections of the stock without overheating others.  This latter becomes a particular problem if you are primarily working in high carbon steel (say for blades).  If you do end up building tire hammers and hydraulic presses you will be able to work larger stock, but as a beginner I wouldn't necessarily go that route.

I would strongly recommend that you and your father take a week long smithing class at one of the better schools to see if and what type of blacksmith work you enjoy before you jump completely into the deep end.  Some folks find out it really isn't for them, or they prefer a different type of smithing that doesn't involve as much post forging work (bladesmithing, for example, is typically around 10-20% forging with the rest being stock removal, heat treatment, handle/guard/sheath finishing...).  Don't be fooled by Forged in Fire. Blacksmith tools and equipment are currently selling at relatively high prices, but the bubble appears to be getting ready to burst.  Don't be sure you will recoup your investment if you decide this isn't your thing after getting fully setup.  You can make some incredible metalwork with a small fraction of the tools and equipment you are contemplating getting.

That is a beautiful (French?) double horn anvil.  Certainly won't hold you back at all.

[jtyson]

Dimensions on the air filter were a guess off the top of my head. I’ll try to measure it this afternoon to get a better idea. I did know that it would be on the larger side, but I wasn’t sure how much was too much. I’ve followed a few builds on other sites and was sort of mimicking one of them that I really liked the looks of. 

As for casting the refractory, I have zero experience with it. I had assumed that it could be mixed wet and poured relatively easily. Sounds like on the form I had the same idea that you did. Flat floor piece would be removable allowing me to peel the tube or cut the pipe sections for removal. There’s no reason I couldn’t use some flashing tin or something like that as well that would be easier to bend/fold in. I assumed standard form oil like used in concrete forming would work as a release agent.

I work 6/12s and last took a vacation in 2014 so I don’t think a week class is in the cards for me. I have to squeeze in time to read and respond on here late at night or while I’m at work at my desk when there is a little down time. I know for a fact my father wants to make knives and as you said, stock removal is a lot of that, so thats why I intend to finish the 2x72 grinders I’ve got parts for. I also want to make knives and similar but I also have ideas for other things that will require large stock. My thinking is that if it is painful and slow, its less likely either he or I will enjoy it as much as if there were power tools involved that made the process easier on the body.

So while it may be the norm to wait a few years before delving into presses or power hammers to see if the hobby sticks, I’d rather give it a run from early on. Especially the press as I could easily use that for metal forming and automotive things that I already do anyway. The tire hammer or any power hammer is a niche item that I think I should be able to recoup my costs on, bubble burst or not. On that note, I’ve seen posts for years on multiple forums about the “damage” FIF has done to the hobby and market and everyone always says its going to get cancelled or go away and several of those posts are over 5 years old and its still on. So while I’m not making my decision based on resale, I’m not avoiding it for fear or things crashing. Worst case scenario I’ve got a bunch of tools should I choose not to keep up with it. The only thing I’ve spent real money on was the anvil at about $4.50/lb. When I was first introduced to blacksmithing I think my friend paid $2/lb for the anvil he got and Robb had to repair it so I don’t feel like I spent astronomical money on that one either. Other than that I am only out the money for forge supplies. So collectively less than $1300 in it right now. I’ve got almost that much money into my welding table alone. More into each of my welders. So really, not a huge expense thus far and even if I build a press and a power hammer, I don’t figure I’ll be any more than a few thousand in, and likely much less. I’m pretty thrifty. 

The anvil, from what I was told on another site, is a Firminy Forge French anvil. It doesn’t have any markings that identify it, but judging by what I’ve searched online after getting that info that seems correct. It has a little chipping on one edge but otherwise is in very good shape. Rebound is nearly perfect. It came from a lady in Arkansas who had several anvils for sale, a few like this and some London patterns, some much larger and significantly more expensive. I wanted the 375lb but didn’t want to fork out $1700 for my first anvil. 

[Latticino]

I'm not sure I follow your logic.  If you work 6/12s on a regular basis and never have time to take off for vacation, when are you going to build all this equipment much less use it?  Hydraulic presses and power hammers definitely make work easier, but if you don't have basic blacksmith skills under your belt (at best) they can just screw things up more quickly.  At worst you can get badly hurt.  Sounds like time is your most valuable commodity.  You will learn so much more quickly from direct instruction, starting with safe blacksmith practices.  There appear to be several shops/schools in your area, a New Mexico Artist Blacksmith Association in Corrales and even the Turley school in Santa Fe.  If you don't have the time to attend, perhaps you should send your father and he can teach you once he learns.

[George N. M.]

I think what a lot of folk are advising you is not to bite too much off too soon.  You probably need to devlop skills with a hand hammer and anvil and be comfortable with how the metal moves and what you can and can't do before you move on to power hammers and presses.  It's like just learning to drive and then jumping into a high performance Formula 1 race car.  It will end in tears.

Do NOT get focused on tools.  What you need to build first are skills, the hand and eye coordination and the mental processes which permit you to do a project.

Also, most of knife building is not forging or heat treating.  If I take 8 hours to build a blade no more than and hour or so  is spent on the hot forging and heat treating.  The rest is all bench work of grinding, polishing, filing, fabricating the guard and pommel, fiting things together, gluing, clamping, making the handle, and (my least favorite) the leather work of making a sheath.  I would keep the blacksmithing tools pretty basic and invest in the tools that will be the most use to you in blade making such as a belt grinder and leather working tools.

If you are working 6/12s you probably have 3-5 days off between work cycles.  These may not coincide with calendar weekends but they may on occasion.  Use those for instruction or attending NMABA events when you can.  Or even make an effort to visit or take lessons from someone with a flexible schedule like Thomas in Socorro.  A day spent with an experienced smith is worth a month of doing things on your own.  I am self taught and I can assure you that it is NOT the best way to go.

BTW, 6/12s equals 72 hours per week which legally means you should be getting 40 hours of straight time and 32 hours at time and a half wages or compensatory time.  That is a brutal schedule but should be good finacially.  I hope that is your situation.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[ThomasPowers]

When I started in the Oilpatch it was 7/12's or 24 on 24 off till a job was done.  Then I might get a day off before the next one.  I was single and learned to live that way.  Bought an old phone company van, insulated it and built in a bed and would camp out on/near the site and so have some down time.  I remember I was averaging one night a week in my apartment.  Saved as much as I could and when the bust hit I was doing OK for a couple of years of "down time".  Found a lot of smithing stuff in those small rural towns too.

[Charles R. Stevens]

1n 1990 the Doctors finally agreed with my friends and family. I am crazy ;-)

Gassers are like pringles, you can’t have just one. A coffee can sized one with a 3/8 T burner dose a lot of work for little fuel. S hooks, small tools, knives etc. then a 1/2” T burner and maybe a pair. This gets you from small projects all the way up to 2”. 
the problem with gas is a forge generally uses X amount of fuel per hour regardless of what size stock your using. Now as you can only forge about 6 inches of hot steel at a time longer forges aren’t needed except for big scrolls and heat treating long knives. Generally a single burner 8-12” deep sized to the size of stock is more efferent. 
Old style loose fill solid fuel forges have the advantage of being reconfigurable, as to some extent brick pile gassers (there are insulated hard refractory bricks, but they are pricey). 

So if your going gas, I would suggest building a coffee can forge from a #10 can (they are thicker than coffee cans) for all the small work and a bigger forge out of a freon/helium can. This gets you up to most anvil tools. I wouldn’t think that a propane can is the upper limit for most of us. And frankly it’s over sized for most work. 

of go old school, my day job runs a pro forge (think propane tank with two 1/2” T burners) wile my “hobby” is ran with side blast charcoal and coal forges. Life is about compromise.

[jtyson]

I am a safety professional by trade primarily in construction but do also work with manufacturing and fabrication shops, so the safety aspect involved with most machinery, guarding, hot work, chemicals, respiratory exposures, heat stress, fatigue, ergonomics, repetitive motion, etc are all things I’m very familiar with an understand how to combat. 

My job is not difficult physically, just time taxing, so I usually work on some project every single day after work for an hour or so, and every Sunday. When the big jobs I’m on stop, I will go back to 40 hours a week until the next big project fires up again. Unfortunately I am an underpaid, salaried worker, so none of the overtime I work is worth it, but unless I go traveling and take a job on the road, or switch from safety to superintendent, I don’t have a lot of options in our very limited market here. 

As to when I’ll build equipment/tools, when I have time. I have literally been accruing things for years for multiple pursuits, not exclusively blacksmithing. I’ve had my anvil now for about 16 months and haven’t put more than a couple pieces of hot metal on it. If I get it rolling in the next few months, cool. If it takes until some time next year, cool. If I magically end up with 2 weeks to spare and nothing else calling my name and a pile of extra cash next month, maybe then. I’m really not stressed about it. 

I’m not entirely brand new to this. I’m not experienced at all, but I have put hot metal down and hit it with a hammer multiple times. I have played around with propane forges. I have zero personal experience with coal other than watching other people use them. I have been taught and been around hours and hours of shop work done by my buddy who went through Robb’s courses. I’ve learned tricks and such that he learned. I’ve played around with treadle hammers. I have years of experience welding, cutting, grinding, shaping, etc. I’ve been fabricating custom parts for various projects for years. I have experience on hydraulic presses used for automotive and fabrication purposes. Many of these skills translate at least partially. I won’t claim to be ready to jump in and make masterpieces, but I am not the least bit concerned with being able to successfully pound some metal into shapes that roughly represent the ideas in my head, because they are mostly roundish, flattish or squarish. I’m not looking to forge the first iron copy of Michaelangelo here. 

Duly noted on everyone’s feelings about presses and power hammers. I’ll probably ignore everyone’s advice here though if we are being totally honest. To me, tools that make my life easier are invaluable, even with a learning curve. Plus, I like building things like that, so its not like I’m taking on a miserable expensive grueling task I’m going to hate just to save some time forging with power instead of by hand. I get to step back and look at a functional item I built that I can either use or sell if I don’t use. If I get to use it and it makes something easier, awesome. If it screws it up faster, so be it. I would have likely screwed it up by hand too. I work on cars a lot. For years I used a ratchet by hand. A couple years back I invested in cordless impacts and cordless power ratchets. I cannot even begin to say how much more time I could have spent driving instead of working on my mustangs, trucks or my bikes had I adopted the power tools years before while doing it all the manual way. Now granted, not a direct comparison because there’s more of a learning curve with a power hammer and I didn’t build an impact from scrap parts, but let me tell you how I know that a half inch impact isn’t the right tool to snug up intake manifold bolts on a Honda H22A. Sometimes hard lessons learned are the ones that stick. Cracked the head on that one. 

I do need to finish my belt sanders I’ve got parts for. For what I intend to forge, not just blades, I figure I’ll use those far more than any other tool. I don’t have any leather tools beyond a basic hole punch. 

I have thought about building multiple forges, just didn’t know that I’d benefit from it and space was always a concern. I guess there wouldn’t really be any reason I couldn’t build a forging “rack” per se and have a couple different larger/smaller forges stacked. Maybe I’ll draw up some concepts there and see how that looks in theory. I had tried to toy around with the idea of a segmented forge with removable blocks to shorten a long area, but ultimately scrapped that drawing because of the argument about how much hot steel you can move at once as you mentioned. I don’t really have any plans to make swords, so a 3’ forge is not likely in my near future. I have made scrolling before both cold and just with a torch, so I could continue to do that if I find that need arises and I didn’t have a big enough forge. 

So that filter I have, its a little smaller than initially thought. 15” diameter and only 16” tall. So it may be more suitable as a can for my “big” forge if I do multiple. My old argon tank might do well chopped into some short pieces as my “coffee can” forge as you say. 

[ThomasPowers]

One thing about hand work, you are much more likely to be able to fix a mistake made by hand  rather than to have to throw it out after a power hammer glitch.  Knowing how hot steel moves under the hammer helps a lot with then going to a [power hammer.  However it's your choice.

[anvil]

Sounds like you know where you are headed, and where you came from. Pretty Fab oriented. Sometimes fab guys coming into smithing have a major basic relearning. Heres a couple things to be aware of. 

Super simple here, Fab work is based on stock removal. Smithing work is based on movement of material. In otherwards Fab guys cut to shape, smiths move it where we want it. They are pretty close to 180# out from each other.

Contemporary trades generally layout and work from an edge whilst smiths generally work from a centerline. I've seen some excellent tradesman get really frustrated time and again when they attempt smithing, stonework, timbers especially old and twisted, and logs. Layout for all these are from a centerline. This minor detail can drive you crazy.

I agree with Thomas, but hey, do it as you please. Even tho a power hammer and a hand hammer do the same thing, there is a difference. That difference is called, perhaps, finesse. Unless you have an air hammer, you will be hardpressed, so to speak, to learn finesse with a treadle or a lil giant or any mechanical hammer. A hand hammer is for finesse.  Thats why I suggest spending as much time with a forging hammer before moving on to a power hammer. 

[Frosty]

Not to dog pile but making the same points in different ways helps understanding. . . sometimes. 

Until a person has the basics down to a proficient level power hammers and presses tend to make mistakes permanent more quickly. Sure manual smithing is harder work, BTW saving your joints is a matter of technique. Education costs whatever the craft demands, short cutting the process leaves a person lacking in knowledge and skill. Regardless of the craft/trade. 

Your shop, your way.

Frosty The Lucky.