US Navy

[Wetsuit29]

Yes,,Life is good.

im only running the burners in the basement to get it established.

I think it’s ready to go outside.

i built another burner today, Precisely identical to the other.

The Jets are .035 jets. I also have .030’s for my welder and some .023’s. 
Not sure where they came from.

My wife asked me why I don’t drill my own holes….. I replied that I don’t have those kinds of drill bits or a proper chuck to hold them. She’s given me some drill budget. Lots of politics in my shop.

To start a forge, I lack materials. All I have on hand is an 8 x 24 terracotta chimney flue and 3- 20 pound propane bottles….. and a ton of 100 year old bricks. I would rather build one time correctly, so I’m going to study your site then order materials. Since I have no experience with this, I will probably order extra everything.

so many things…..

Need to send my large Smith regulators out for rebuild. My Smith Oxygen regulator leaks like a sieve.

Its always something.

We have a large storm here tonight, tornadoes possible, so we will all be in the basement for a few hours tonight. I think we will be fine. Walls 1 ft thick.

Thank You for your feedback and assistance….. Without it I would be stuck with the WAG method.. 
.

 

[Frosty]

Here's hoping you're reading this, this morning or at worst just waiting for power or phone service to come back online. 

T burners are notoriously sensitive to breezes and back pressure a little less so. A brief run in a terracotta forge simulation might be good enough to tune them if you restrict the volume. But if you're going to use them in a forge you need to build one anyway. soooo. 

The bricks are good for a solid fuel forge but their survival in a propane forge can be measured in minutes. 

I highly recommend you spend the $30 +/- and buy a proper propane regulator, acet or oxy regulators aren't safe to use for propane. Modern multi fuel gas regulators are often rated for propane and are fine. Propane is very chemically active and WILL decompose old school rubber, seals and diaphragms in regulators and the hoses, lets not forget hoses. 

Frosty The Lucky. 

 

[JHCC]

An old 20 lb propane bottle makes a good shell for a gas forge; just make sure you open and cut it safely. There are a number of discussions on IFI about the best way to go about doing that.

[ThomasPowers]

You can build a propane forge from a BBQ gas bottle.  A party balloon helium tank woks almost as well and can be found free (or cheap) in several sizes---I stopped picking them up at the scrapyard after I had a half dozen hanging on the shop wall.

[Wetsuit29]

Well,

That is a lot of information to get started on.

Air Gas told me that my small acetylene regulator was safe for propane but not my heavy duty Smith Miller. The adjustable High Pressure Propane Regulator’s are all over the place. I will get one today. I usually go with Air Gas, as I have propane cutting tips for my small Victor torch. I got them from them.

Today, I will test my second burner, and might make a third, just cause I like spares on hand. I will also set up propane delivery plumbing to where my forge will live. I also have a 250 gallon propane tank that I will tie the basement into. I have a large roll of 1/2 copper tube that I will use for the longer runs. If life allows I will do an Amazon order for proper refractory cement and insulation. Like I said, I only like to build things once, so I will probably just suspend the CFO’s basement budget until this project is up and running.

Of course, before any of this, I have to go survey the acres, out buildings, pond, etc for damage from the storm last night. Weather radio alerted us about 1:30 am….. had to heard 5 dogs, etc. I think we are going to be fine.

So, I’m all in on the forge, regardless of the resources necessary to build it.

please keep the advice and feedback coming and I will keep on building.

[ThomasPowers]

Gas Forges are a consumable in a blacksmith's shop; I've been forging with propane around 25 years now and have built and rebuilt my gas forges as necessary!

[Frosty]

Propane hose is type T I believe. Newer regulators have been rated for propane for some years now but make sure. 

Plumbing from your large yard tank to run a forge burner runs into delivery pressure issues. The regulator that supplies your furnace, stove, etc. delivers pressure measured in inches of mercury with a "manometer." A propane burner usually requires in excess of 5psi, typically more in the range of 8-12psi. and requires a good volume. Ask Jennifer about the ins and outs of setting up to run forges off a large tank. 

I HIGHLY discommend setting up ANY home made propane burning appliance in the house let alone the basement! First off is ventilation, a single T burner tuned to neutral still produces prodigious amounts of CO. Secondly a basement is a trap for heavier than air gasses so ANY leak will cause propane to build until it reaches an ignition source or someone throws a light switch. Thirdly regardless of the cause your insurance adjuster is going to decline any claims if such an appliance is discovered IN the house. 

I have mine in my steel shop out back. Outbuildings are the perfect place.

Amazon isn't such a great source for forge building supplies. You might actually get refractory CEMENT,  instead of a water setting castable refractory. There is a serious difference though a number of manufacturers are starting to call their refractories, refractory cement, to bow to popular misuse of the term. Refractory CEMENT is formulated to stick things together say brick, it is NOT formulated to survive in direct contact with flame, especially not a propane flame. Refractory cement or mortar will not survive very long, often two or three sessions. Some lasts longer but it's not likely.

You can get refractory blanket like Kaowool at your local HVAC service/supply store. If they service furnaces they may have plenty of rems and trimmings. Fire code forbids using anything NOT cut off a roll so any trimmings MUST be discarded by law. My favorite HVAC supplier typically stuffs a couple lawn size garbage bags with rems. I haven't bought Kaowool in years. 

I didn't ask for rems, I told them what I wanted it for and we talked about building propane forges, while we were one of the guys in back stuffed a couple bags and I left hardly able to  move in my Eagle Talon. 

Check around. If nothing is available for reasonable you can buy smaller quantities for reasonable from the Iforge store the link is at the top of every page.

Building the "ONE Forge" is a common beginner thought but it isn't going to happen. First is even if you do manage to build a really durable forge your needs and wants will change as your skill sets grow. Most of us who've burned propane for long have a couple few old forges collecting dust under a bench. I have 3 I couldn't rebuild or dismantle and two every day users. 

Done right a forge will last a few years but they are wear items and will require rebuild or replacement. Depends on how often and for how long you use it of course. Lots of short sessions wears faster than long sessions, the thermal cycling is hard on hard refractory and kiln washes.

Welcome to the addiction. 

Frosty The Lucky. 

[Wetsuit29]

Very interesting post…..

I do have an out building that used to be a Model A garage, it has power and lights. I don’t know if I mentioned it, but this house was built in 1924, ad most the walls (brick) are a foot thick. It will burn though, all the lumber is Rough hewn 100 year old oak. I thi might be taking some safety issues for granted.I appreciate you focusing me on that.

My 250 gallon propane tank has a regulator on it but I don’t know the rating. I intend to plumb it to the basement to run our gas fireplace that’s upstairs, or something like it.

When the tornado ran over Cookeville, ( my nearest city) a couple years ago, folks were in shelter for a few days. The basement is a shelter first, shop second. All my hot work is being set up to be done out back. The temporary black hose in my photos is propane hose. But, it’s temporary.

Im going to Sergeant York’s house this weekend. The are setting up a blacksmith shop in his yard, LOL, along with the infantry trench….

I will see if I can glean anything from them with respect to the local area.

BTW, Sheila said that since you had extra forges, that you should send me one instead of me making her pay for my own….. Sheila is my wife. CFO, CEO, Boss/ Fleet Admiral. She administrators all finance.

The biggest concern about logistics is not only the correct stuff but the correct quantity. I will refer to this site first. I do not see the Brands on Amazon that are recommended on this site.

[JHCC]

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

Propane hose is type T I believe.

This is correct; same kind that came with my oxypropane torch.

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

I HIGHLY discommend setting up ANY home made propane burning appliance in the house let alone the basement!

Strongly agree, for all the reasons given.

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

Amazon isn't such a great source for forge building supplies.

I would make one exception to this: I got the hose that connects my 20lb propane tank to my forge (with 0-30 psi regulator and a pressure gauge) from Amazon, and I love it. I would, however, recommend getting one with a woven metal cover, which is somewhat more resistant to having a piece of hot metal dropped on it.

2 minutes ago, Wetsuit29 said:

Sheila said that since you had extra forges, that you should send me one instead of me making her pay for my own

This presupposes that those extra forges are in usable condition and haven't been cannibalized for parts!

3 minutes ago, Wetsuit29 said:

Sheila is my wife. CFO, CEO, Boss/ Fleet Admiral. She administrators all finance.

"She's a good Sheila, Bruce, and not at all stuck up!"

[Anachronist58]

On 3/30/2022 at 1:02 AM, Wetsuit29 said:

Pads like these?

Thrust bearings, Very tedious.

BTW, you are what you drink….

I was a monster for a spell, then a rockstar, now just coffee[...]

Yes, but smaller each than your micrometer thimbal, five pieces each in a housing, and for radial load (on a shaft ø).

Funny, I call my Sheila Admiral, and I was in the Army (did once have a retired navy chief for a boss). Glad to hear you weathered the storm. Sgt Alvin York?

Nice pink rock.

Robert and Sheila Taylor

[Frosty]

You can visit THE sergeant Alvin York's house? Something else to add to my bucket list! 

Tell Sheila you can have your pick, come and get it.

One thing that's a constant on Iforge and that's safety, we can be positively certain about safety. I know I don't have so many friends I can take a chance on losing one if I can help it.

Frosty The Lucky. 

[Frosty]

We talk about safety pretty often and it's often not so much for the person we're talking with, it's for the new guys reading posts. Some have zero shop experience so we talk safety practices, ppe, etc. often.

Before I got married one of my retirement goals was to cruise the country, see things and talk to folk. A coffee shop / truck stop tour of America. 

Before Deb retired officially she bought 27' RV and we'd planned on seeing America a couple months at a time. The Covid and now crazy gas prices. Oh well, things change and we ain't dead yet. Maybe we'll cross paths one of these days.

Frosty The Lucky. 

[Wetsuit29]

If you want to see this part of the world, you may not need an RV….

You can consider this an open invitation. Perhaps you should send your email or messenger.

Wait,,,,, where do you live? We are right between Cookeville TN and Monticello KY. 

One of my biggest safety challenges that I have to constantly work on is what the grinders give off. It’s always a challenge keeping ahead of the grinders. They are subtle and unforgiving.

Tonight I discovered that the dia of my two mixing tube’s were quite a different, but, both were schedule 40 3/4 black pipe. .785 vs .835. Both Burners are identical in every other way, but one rocks the other (the smaller one) barely will stay lit.  
Long story short, both tubes are identical now. Tomorrow I will try them to see if that was it.

 

[ThomasPowers]

Just a little memory from my scuba class back in the late 1970's:  it takes 32' of water to exert the same pressure as 1 atmosphere:  14.7 psi so a water column of 384" (Natural Gas pressure in a house is typically around 7" IIRC)

[Frosty]

22 hours ago, Wetsuit29 said:

Wait,,,,, where do you live?

Meadow Lakes, Alaska, between Wasilla and Big Lake, about 50 miles north of Anchorage. It's up to Deb where we stay, there's no telling I'm usually just a passenger. 

Plumbing pipe isn't terribly consistent, the threads need to match reasonably well the ID not so much. The plumbing supply up the road buys pipe in bulk and threads their own nipples so if you buy a number at one time they're close enough for T burner tolerances. 

I experimented with turning flares from couplers and cleaning the threads out of the Ts but there was no appreciable change in performance. I use thread protectors on the output ends mostly to make them easy to mount and they act as a step flare, Mikey explains how that works better than I'll try here. My memory sucks.

I have a hypotheses as to why the burner seems to work slightly better if I leave the thread protectors as is rather than turn the ID into conic profile. Bernoulli's principle says a fluid flowing on a curved surface accelerates producing a low pressure boundary layer. The fuel air mixture flowing over the threads acts like it's flowing over a series of curved surfaces lowering pressure and accelerating. 

Sure threads have sharp edges, they aren't curved but there are a number of high performance bush planes with skins that have surprisingly sharp ridges to improve lift while reducing drag. And yes, some ridges across the air flow.

That's just a hypothesis by an old tinkerer.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Wetsuit29]

Alaska?!?!? That’s a stretch…..

How about I take a bunch of pictures of the York Place ad make them available. I already have a ton of photos of his Grist Mill. The entire building is a machine, instead of machines in a building.

I purchased a 0-20 high pressure high volume regulator today. It does work better then the acetylene regulator that I was using.. I will have to add a pressure gauge though.

I moved all the Burner stuff outside. I need to stop and build a Table/Bench before I go further. I’m not ready to move into the shed, I have to install more and better lighting first. Just more stuff to do, or as I often say, “It’s just boats”

I ran the burners outside and together. One seems to do really well, the other a little less. I have different flairs on them just to see. Merchant Couplings are over 6 bucks here, I’m using regular couplings at 1.69 each. I have still photos to attach, but cannot guess the pressure. They seem stable all the way up to 20. These photos are with the regulator half open. The plumbing is temporary.

I forgot to take a photo, but I made a tool to check if the mig tips are centered. Works pretty good.

Alaska! That’s a stretch!

[ThomasPowers]

Why do you need a pressure gauge?  Learn to adjust "by eye and ear" . Cheap gauges are notoriously bad and calibration is a pain.  You burners should work at what pressure is right for them and NOT at some pressure somebody else's burners like!

[Frosty]

Nah, Alaska is big enough we don't need to stretch it any. I'll PM you about pics of Sgt. Yorks place. I have a thing for the kind of valor medal of honor recipients show and Alvin York is special in a very special breed. From what little I know, his actions and the following fame, publicity, dog and pony shows, etc. didn't seem to change the man. THAT is truly admirable. 

They're burning pretty close to right, the one with the bell reducer is slightly richer. The price of merchant couplers is why I use thread protectors, they're FREE.  Just ask at your local real plumbing supply. Big box stores are awfully tight about turning loose with return or discard things. The last time I asked for a handful my HVAC supply/service made me take the bucket. I not only got 35-40, 3/4" thread protectors I got a 5gl plastic bucket.

Thomas beat me to gauges. Their only real utility is for repeating forge temperatures without having to eyeball it. For instance your general forging temperature is low yellow, reliable welding temp is high yellow but your best scrolling and twisting temperature is mid orange. 

Then is when a gauge comes in handy to set the psi as noted in your notebook. (You ARE keeping notes, yes?) Then have a cup of coffee or arrange tools, cut stock, sweep up, etc. while the forge comes to temperature. Doing it by eye means remembering flame color / length and sound when it's within your chosen temp range. Yes?

When a person is figuring out how HIS burners work, they're all different being home built, gauges tend to confuse things folk try to worry about adjusting to psi instead of adjusting for the right flame.

I HIGHLY recommend you NOT put a gauge on it until you know how they perform by eye and ear. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Wetsuit29]

I have to be quick, I have a couple of bonafide jobs to knock out before AM. 
money is a Header for a V8.

I Think I have everything to go into forge build, except a table. I’m going to do that next while I wait for K-wool to come in. So, I’m off the burners till the table is done. I MIGHT do a sailboat inboard engine trick, Vacuum gauge on the mix tubes, just for my curiosity. I’m pretty sure I can match them precisely, just like barrels on an old style carburetor. Not sure, but, I might.

Frosty, you ever run into a guy up around Wasella named Burris? Originally from Idaho Falls Idaho?

I have to knock out this header, TTYL

[Wetsuit29]

The pressure gauge is temporary, just to build and tune the burners.

For some reason, the burner with the coupling flair cuts out over 9 1/4 pounds. Don’t know why, but I intend to trim the jet back an 1/8th. That’s the one that seems a bit rich.

The other burner has a tapered coupling in the shop. I intend to take a Thought that Frosty had about the threads in the flair being helpful. I cut a 5 degrees per side taper in them, and the one in the shop, I going to “Ripple” that taper, just cause and to see side by side what the difference might be. Cutting “Ripples” on a taper is kind of my idea of a pleasant evening.

so, again, I’m on hold while I build my outdoor Work Bench. Then I will build the forge.

Till then, I’m going to fix this header.

[Anachronist58]

Man, that is ugly.  I have buttered and ground in exhaust flares before. Enjoyed the Hero treatment more than being paid what I charged for the job...

Robert Taylor

[Charles R. Stevens]

I suppose a machinist would loose what little sanity he has if we started talking dirt and a box, wouldn’t he?

welcome to the mad house. If one remembers we are guests on Glenn’s front porch and it is frowned apron to use Mrs. Conner’s flower boxes as urinals, you’ll do fine.

[Wetsuit29]

This is the tool I made for checking and setting the oriface  precisely on center with mixing tube. Might be extra, but it works and works good.

[Frosty]

I don't know a Burris that I know of. The population of Just Wasilla is estimated at 12,000 permanent residents but we get double that transients and seasonals in a normal summer. The chances I know someone you do is slim though it has happened much to everybody's surprise. 

From what I can see in the pics, the burner with the coupler is running leaner of the two so shortening the jet ANY will make it more so, probably well out of range. The one with the bell reducer looks to be the better in the picture.

If you're going to machine ripples in the nozzle make them air foil shape, not just ripples. If you're going to the trouble go all the way. Hmmm? If it works well enough I may have to rig a tracer on my lathe. 

Truth to tell if I get it set up in the shop I'm going to turn split dies and try spinning burners.

Nice centering jig but if you chuck up the nipple and do all the drilling and tapping in the lathe everything is as centered as the lathe and tail stock. I REALLY prefer to reduce steps if it doesn't reduce quality and this one increases quality. 

Uhhhhh. Someone would have to pay me well not to just toss that header and make another one. Of course I wouldn't be doing exhaust work, I don't have a pipe bender and charged too much to by the, bends, wyes, Ts and such to put one together. Of course if it were for a friend. . . 

The grist mill was water powered yes? It doesn't look all that large for a water wheel grist mill to me. That's the sort of thing that big is actually easier to operate and more profitable. It's beautiful, is there any intent to get it working again?  

Frosty The Lucky.