US Navy

[Wetsuit29]

 

 

I am working out two Frosty T burners and I have to say that the drawing and instructions are difficult for me to work with.

oh, they are fine, It is more of a personal professional issue.

like, 3/4 inch pipe, it’s .830 ID, not 3/4, so, plugged into that formula (like an idiot) well, it’s not 6 inches…… 

Black Pipe and associated fittings are not concentric or square…. So, like the retired MR that I am, I made everything absolutely true to the 3/4 pipe bore. Guess I have plenty of time on my hands.

The jet has to be centered and square…. After plenty of trials, I have a pretty good idea of exactly how centered it has to be and still work. My limited experience is that up to .093 off center is about as far as I could go and still function.

I have to say that I am having a blast in my shop with this gas forge project.

I have a small shop in my basement. Lathe and mill, Grinder, 2 Welders, Arc and Flux, Large Oxy/Acetylene rig, etc.

like most Navy Machinists, I am not a good welder. I practice when I can.

I buy all the plow blades that I can, and I intend to make Throwing Axes.

Axes are all the rage here in Middle Tennessee, and I like doing them.

The first ax I made was just for learning how to do it. My wife has it now…. hope she doesn’t throw it at…

I intend to finish the burners, then build a forge to put them in. I have several old 20 pound propane bottles, I will probably use them.

Thank You for letting me be part of this forum. I know it will be a big help to me.

Enjoy the photos…..

PS, The copper one is just a study prototype and will not be used.

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Mod34
Moved to proper section

[JHCC]

Welcome aboard! 

[Scott NC]

  Welcome from NC!  Are you welding in the basement? 

[Wetsuit29]

Maybe………

No, as quiet as Byrdstown is, some things just cannot be left outside…..

Well, maybe a bit of plumbing soldering……

I have 120 ft of hoses and the kin is usually on a cart that rolls outside. The oxy/acetylene rig is strictly an out door activity

The Lincoln Tombstone is undergoing maintenance but when it’s running, it will be an outdoor only machine  

 

Am testing the burners inside the basement though, but just to get them started.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Wetsuit, glad to have you. Thank you for Serving.

Agreed, no plumbing pipe or fittings are consistent, especially across brands. The dimensions are NOT intended to be precise, they're close enough approximations so a little tuning after construction is almost always called for.

A lathe is THE best way to build a T burner but you've chucked it up in the hardest way I know of. Next time chuck up the nipple in a self centering 3 jaw chuck and put away the instruments. Use THE nipple you're using for the burner's mixing tube and do all the drilling and tapping as you assemble the burner on that nipple.

Drill and tap the T, then install the brass fitting and drill and tap it through the pipe connection side. On some fittings I had to open the through hole some so the tap wasn't cutting full length, you only need about 1/4" tapped where the mig tip screws in. 

Doing it that was aligns everything to the limits of the roundness of the nipple. And no, I found through experimentation that smoothing the weld seam and pipe ends did nothing significant for performance and especially not for the output nozzle. 

Another thing, keeping the jet aligned is critical and all that pipe you have hanging from the brass fitting is guaranteed to get bumped and knock the jets out of alignment. I found keeping it all as close and short as possible really helps. 

lose as much as possible, if you have to use a different fitting for the mig tip do NOT try to plumb it back to what I called for in the plans, just go with as short and simple a connection as possible to the propane supply. The ONLY reason I went with copper tubing is because it's self supporting and acts as a brace for the vertical burners on my shop forge. Put the 1/4 turn ball valves at the plenum NOT on the burner. Not only are they unnecessary weight hanging on it but every time you turn it on or off you're bumping the alignment. Hmmm?

I found I had a lot less trouble and spent less time building the things when I put all my instrumentation away and just used the tools in order. Drill, tap the T. install the fitting, drill and tap it. Remove the fitting install the mig tip, connect it to propane and start tuning. 

Give me a shout if you have questions, I may not answer right away but I'll get back. If I don't PM me I'm a TBI survivor and forget things.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Scott NC]

  I figured as much but thought I better ask.    I've known a few who have....  Again, welcome.

 

  

 

[Wetsuit29]

I appreciate your post and advice.

I do recognize the utility of your methods and they are valid.

I do think there’s a misunderstanding regarding my method of fabrication.

Sometimes I use all my “stuff” because I’m bored or I’m politicking. For example, I NEVER use my 3 jaw chuck. I’m probably faster with my 4, in any case. It’s just in my DNA. For various reasons, I always dial stuff in. Is it necessary? No, it is not. But my shop is not a commercial venture, but for my pleasure….. No boss.

I had intended to rely on coal. Surprisingly, coal is hard to get in this part of Tennessee. So, I got into this propane thing. It’s my intention to have charcoal, Coal and propane. I hope to do little projects just to teach myself.

I don’t have an anvil, but I have several feet of railroad rail. My shop is all about managing with what’s on hand.

Three Jaw….. LOL, I would get fired in my last profession (Babbitt bearings) if I ever set up a Three jaw.

i also have removed all things metric from my shop, but was frustrated when I discovered the MIG tips were metric (6mm x 1.0) yes, I had to buy a metric tap, but let’s not tell anyone.

BTW, The T Burners are miniature versions of what is used to pour the larger Babbitt bearings. It has me thinking about developing that capability (bearing work) on a smaller scale. The Sergeant York Grist mill is full of the things and they are all seized up.

life is good. If it looks like I’m screwing around in the shop, it’s probably because I’m bored and am just horsing around.

Thanks again for reaching out.

[Frosty]

Uh huh. My Father was a metal spinner and machinist who owned his own shop near the end of his career. I don't think he had a self centering chuck, 3 or 4 jaw but I could still chuck something up faster in a 3 jaw. Just not in one of his lathes. 

This whole thing about doing stuff the hard way just because is a "Thing" with us on Iforge. Almost nothing we do at the anvil can't be bought at a hardware store or online for often less than it costs to make it ourselves. I blacksmith because I LIKE playing with fire and hitting things with hammers. I developed the T burner because a Jet Ejector is a more powerful inducer than a linear like an old school Ron Reil type. None are new devices, they've been around in one form or another for many hundreds of years in a couple instance a couple thousand. Jet ejector type induction was used to circulate fresh air in a couple mines WAY back where there was enough flowing water to justify a tunnel to drain the water and more details than I probably remember correctly.

Anyway, I decided a Reil type burner was too difficult for folks with limited shop equipment and skills to build with any guarantee of success. So I developed the T. It's an "Ejector" type inducer so you don't have to get it tuned very precisely to get good performance and the way I do it you can do it with a hand drill and a small tap & die set. I didnt write that method up to avoid confusing folks. 

If you've read many posts in the "Burners 101" section you've noticed the folks with the worst problems were mixing designs without understanding the basics of how they work. That's why I can get pretty adamant about choosing ONE set of plans and following THOSE only. 

I what way do you use a type of T or jet ejector(?) pouring babbitt?

It's good to have another tinkerer posting on the forum, in a while you can start answering questions so I can sit back an follow along while you handle it. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[George N. M.]

Welcome aboard from 7500' in SE Wyoming.  Glad to have you.  A surprisingly high percentage of folks here are veterans.

I suggest you find the local ABANA affiliate and attend events (if it is reasonably covid safe for you to do so).  There is nothing like live instruction to advance your skills.  If you can't do that, there are some good videos on You Tube.  I like the ones from Black Bear Forge, JPL Services (our own Jennifer), and Torbjorn Ahman.  There are other good ones.  I believe there is a thread on the subject somewhere on IFI.  There are also some really bad and dangerous ones out there too.  And books.  Good blacksmithing books are always a good investment.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[JHCC]

15 minutes ago, Frosty said:

to avoid confusing folks

Getting soft in your old age.

[Frosty]

It's only fun if I'm not the one who has to un-confuse ( profuse?) them. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

One of the major problems with the internet is that you can't poke someone with a pointed stick when they need it....

Wetsuit; another reason to find the local ABANA group is to trade skills; you sound like you have some great ones that others could profit from.  I had a HSM for a friend back in Ohio and I once asked him if he could turn a hardy stem to fit into a headache ball I wanted to use for armouring.  He said yes and  a couple of weeks later he brought it back done and explained as it had two non concentric holes in it with the inner one threaded for the hook and went into great detail on how he had offset his lathe to deal with the nonconcentricity.  I told him I would have just stuck an undersized piece in and filled the gap with melted wheel weights and be done with it before he had indicated his first turning!   He really enjoyed figuring a way to do things using machinist skills though...

[Wetsuit29]

My current, if secondary goal with the forge is to make throwing axes. I intend to make around 50 or 75, and get them in the 127 yard sale. That is how I came to make my training hatchet out of an antique plow blade, which I’m sure is 1080, at least.

I am pursuing the Frosty T burners because they are of simple design, made from easy to obtain, off the shelf parts. They are compact for the power (btu heat) they deliver. From an engineering standpoint they are facilitating.

I made my training hatchet with my oxy/acetylene rig with a Smith Miller cutting torch. I could not keep my bottles full if I did that very often. It’s an hour drive to change out my bottles.

My PRIMARY goal for my shop, including a forge is to have a modest repair capability during a time when the stores are closed or the shelf’s are bare. On demand repairs for say tractors or specialty vehicles which are common here in this part of Tennessee. At a minimum, a heat treatment capability is necessary.

i only just realized that I probably could do small Babbitt bearings with this gear. Babbitt is extremely expensive for the home shop. There would have to be a compelling reason for me to get into those.

Im starting to get my mobility and strength back, so I will most likely become more focused on this forge. Most of the stuff I do, I do sitting down. I hope to ramp up in the next couple weeks.

Hmmmm, Forge, or Sailboat….. It will be a serious time management issue.

[Frosty]

46 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

One of the major problems with the internet is that you can't poke someone with a pointed stick when they need it....

For which I am thankful!

Frosty The Lucky.

2 minutes ago, Wetsuit29 said:

Hmmmm, Forge, or Sailboat….. It will be a serious time management issue.

Only if you don't mount the forge correctly in the sailboat. Hmmm, if you layered pigmented ferrocement you could build a damascened sailboat and it'd be pretty fire resistant. 

GOOD IDEA! Please remember we LOVE pics!

Frosty The Lucky.

[Wetsuit29]

I seem to like the shop and forge first….

“Jaunder”, a San Juan21, is a very entertaining MONEY PIT!!

Here is an upcoming project….

[George N. M.]

I have heard a boat defined as a hole in the water into which you throw money.

GNM

[Wetsuit29]

LOL,

Right now, the San Juan21 has a hole in the bow to throw money in….

Fiberglass, Easy Peasy, Blacksmith stuff? Huge learning curve….

the Jon Boat is for the Bass Pond….

[ThomasPowers]

In Europe, smiths often use their powerhammers sitting down.  I have seen everything from a stool to a sling off the rafters.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome from the Ozark mountains and another old sailor. USCG 1964-1970 Engineman 3rd Semper Paratus. You will find that we blacksmiths drive machinists nuts, as y'all work to a tolerance in the thousands and blacksmiths work to the tolerance of a worn Shilling. When I acquired an old Star 30 pound hammer I had to re-pour all the Babbitt bearings. Quite the experience and I'm sure the clearances are not as precise as you could get but using an old hand bearing scraper and Plastigauge strips, I got close enough. Keeping her oiled and she keeps hammering away for a couple of decades now.

[Frosty]

Did they tell you what did that to the bow or did they leave you Juandering? You have a LOT of sanding to get deep and far back enough on the port side to make a strong repair. Have you ever done any glassing? 

If you rename your bas boat a Juan boat you can use it for a skiff. 

Maybe get one of those little submersibles and call it a Fish Called Juanda.

I have to stop or I'll start throwing things at myself!

Frosty The Lucky.

[Wetsuit29]

OMG!

well, this is cool…

M in the right place for sure.

this photo and short video is my third test of my T. It seems to be burning inside my flair, which is 5 degrees per side. But, still, reasonable performance, I think. I will make one more and a spare and get them in some insulation and keep at it.

I did notice a slight misaligned jet, which I corrected before this test. The photos should be self explanatory.

   

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Mod30
Remove excessive quote.

[Wetsuit29]

Frosty,

On the bow of my sailboat, we hit a sumurged log on Dale Hollow Lake, last 4th of July. I taped over it and finished the weekend. I have to wait till the weather warms up a bit before I fix the hole. Fiberglass does not like cold weather. I thought it to minor for an insurance claim. It’s above the waterline and it’s in a sealed compartment. I have Dremel and sanders. No big deal.

[Anachronist58]

13 hours ago, Wetsuit29 said:

Three Jaw….. LOL, I would get fired in my last profession (Babbitt bearings) if I ever set up a Three jaw.

I had to pick just one... Thank you for your Service. How interesting.  Nice to make your acquaintance. 

Hey y'all.

Robert Taylor

Edit:  Yes, now I remember.  Worked in a gas turbogenset component shop, we made "lead" faced bearing pads and retainer assemblies. The mainshaft would ride on five of these pads on a pressurized oil film.  My little Southbend glides on Babbitts...

Edited March 30, 2022 by Anachronist58
remembered something

[Wetsuit29]

Pads like these?

Thrust bearings, Very tedious.

BTW, you are what you drink….

[Frosty]

21 hours ago, Wetsuit29 said:

we hit a sumurged log on Dale Hollow Lake, last 4th of July.

I'll bet that was a rush.  I'd log another Juandering pun but figure I'll give it a rest. . . For a while. 

I'll have to tell you about why I got to rebuild the bow of our 18' inboard outboard some time.

I'll let Mike evaluate your burner's flame. Next time a couple still pictures are more informative and take a LOT less time and bandwidth to download. 

Also, tune the burner where you're going to use it. Backpressure from burning in the forge will change it's performance. 

What diameter is the jet? 

Frosty The Lucky.