Forging Cold/Hot Rolled 1045 Bar Stock

[4575wcf]

Hey All

Has anyone done much hand forging on this particular alloy?  During my nearly 40 year career as a machinist I have run a ton of the stuff, 1040, 1045, 1050 mostly in chrome plated and induction hardened chrome plated rod, making various replacement rods in the hydraulic industry of all sizes.  These steels weld pretty well,  they are not that much different from other tool steels, with the exception that they have a cutting surface speed of about 25sfm using high speed steel, whereas 4140, 8620, 1144 or similar will have a surface speed approaching 50 surface feet.  Like any of the spring steels they will work harden if you get them hot in the bottom of a drilled hole, or a milled surface, and you are all done.  I am wondering how this property would effect forging.  Thanks for any information.

[Latticino]

1045 forges very well.  Great steel for hammer heads, chisels, punches and drifts.

[Frazer]

For forging, hot rolled vs cold rolled doesn't make a difference; it's all hot formed when you're done with it. If you have any leftovers from previous jobs don't put any of the chrome plated stuff in the forge. For chrome you'll have to mechanically remove all the plating before heating. You're a machinist, I'm sure you have a way (or several) to do that.

Work hardening WRT machining isn't an issue while forging.  It can come into play with struck tools where the struck end gets mushroomed out after long term use. That can be safety concern since chips can break off and cause injury. However, that isn't specific to 1045.

Other than that (as mentioned above) it's a great alloy for tool making, especially those you would prefer to be tough rather than hard. Hardening is relatively straight forward and forgiving, which can be a benefit.

Some people will say not to use it for edged tools. That's arguably true for something like a knife, but for chisels, hardies and other edged blacksmithing tools I think it works just fine since edge retention/hardness isn't all that important.

 

[ThomasPowers]

Once it's glowing cold rolled is *gone*.  Also we are forging it above the dislocation climb temperature so it doesn't work harden; or perhaps I should say the work hardening goes away while you are working it. (We work above the normalization temperature usually used to remove stresses/strains and work hardening.)

As mentioned: DON'T PUT PLATED METAL IN A FORGE!  There is a reason Glenn sells "In Rust We Trust" T shirts!

Note that if you have access to good known steel it makes a dandy trade or even sales item for blacksmithing conferences!  Back a bunch a years there was a chap that had access to buckets of broken pharmaceutical punches of S1 and asked what they could do with them.  I said, "Take them to Quad-State and sell them!"   He did and it more than paid their way to the conference.  I still use the hot cut I forged from one of them as one of my most used tools in the smithy.

[anvil]

FWIW, all the steels you mentioned are medium carbon steels and great for hammers, amonst other things. They are also considered tool steels. The daily driver material in a blacksmith shop would be A36. It's far less expensive and suitable for most forgings. Tool steels are used for tool making. Altho your machinist skills are superb, They are only selectively good in a blacksmith shop. The two crafts approach iron working from two very different points of view. One by stock removal, the other by moving the material from one shape to another. I suggest you look into heat treating and get familiar with the process and techniques to understand how to deal with 1040.  

So welcome to the world of the blacksmith, Its a great addition to your machinist skills.

[4575wcf]

Thanks very much guys.  I guess I should have been a bit more specific, I have received a warning from a moderator for posting in the gunsmith forum.  If any of you have followed my other posts you would know I am researching shotgun chopper lump barrels, and the forging therof.  I encountered a thread that suggested 1045 as a suitable steel for a set of pre WWI shotgun tubes, simply because 4140 did not exist prior to 1930's and Winchesters M21 was the first to use it.  My "Guinea pig" is a Stevens 335.  This early model 335 has a long straight sided notch in the water table with the bite in the rib extension, and offers  about as straightforward work for jointing as such work gets.  I thought to start with 1045 annealed hot or cold roll, no chrome plating.  The cost of the material is a bit less, I am familiar with the stuff,  and I am liable to scrap a forging or two getting the process working.  Once the process is off the ground, of course,  4140 will be the stuff.  I wanted to be sure the 1045 wasn't going to develop hard spots after the forging operation, because it will need a great many precise machine cuts, inside and out. You fellows have answered the question nicely.  I will give the first set of successful tubes a very thorough proving by the way.

[JHCC]

I'm sure you know this already, but one significant difference between hot-rolled and cold-rolled steels is that the latter usually have the mill scale removed either by pickling or grinding. Since mill scale is tougher than unhardened steel, that can make a difference to your machining, especially in the wear on your cutting tools.

If you are going to be forging first and machining after, you might want to consider some kind of scale removal in between. Just a thought from a non-machinist.

[4575wcf]

Thanks JHCC.  I'm studying up watching all the videos I can find on folks forging these barrel halves, trying to get set up with a starting plan.  I see the smiths brushing the scale off with a wire brush occasionally to keep it cleaned off the forging, the anvil and any swage blocks.  From what I can gather so far I think the important part must be to watch closely for anything and everything going wrong at every moment.  Watch the heat, watch the fire, watch the metal, watch for scale, watch for cold shuts, watch for cracks . . .Sort of like machining in that way, looks like you gotta bring your game.  The video from the 1920's of the Belgian damascus makers is really impressive since they are using nothing but a huge anvil with multiple tapered grooves, and two guys.  The offhand guy with the big hammer managing the mandrel, and the smith with the smaller hammer keeping the forging turning, all the while timing their alternating blows not to smack anybody's knuckles.  The offhand guy tending the bellows, and the smith tending the fire and the forging.  Talk about 90 percent skill and 10 percent equipment.  Wow.

[Latticino]

Just be extremely careful.  I've been forging as a hobby for around 8 years now and there is no way I would trust my forge welds for forging a gun barrel (though to be clear I don't even know what a "chopper barrel" is.  Those guys in the video you referenced are true artisans and most likely had more forging experience than anyone you will run into today.

Of course if all you are doing is forging a general monolithic shape, with no forge welds, and machining all the openings, that is a very different issue.  Then you will just need to correctly heat treat your forging to both refine your grain and properly temper or anneal the steel to allow easy machining.  For that I suspect an older copy of the Machinery's Handbook will be helpful for guidance.

[JHCC]

2 hours ago, 4575wcf said:

The offhand guy with the big hammer

I.e., the "striker".

[anvil]

It may not be what he is doing but a forge welded wrought iron barrel and black powder is pretty doable and safe.

[Pat Masterson]

Sorry this isn’t related to 1045 but Speaking of “in rust we trust” reminded me - are there different types of h13 - some with more chrome than others? Asking because I picked some up and it’s very chrome looking - and when I look up other listings for it sometimes it looks like what I have and other times it looks to have a finish more like regular steel. My forge is outside anyway so I’m not sure breathing in fumes would be a major concern but still wanted to be sure it’s safe to forge. 

[JHCC]

H13 contains 4.75% to 5.5% Chromium, so strictly speaking, the answer to your question is Yes. However, that doesn't answer your real question, which is whether or not that makes a difference in the level of risk inherent in forging it. The answer to that is basically No. The problem isn't the amount of Cr in the H13 alloy, but whether or not there is chrome plating on the surface. If there is, then it's not safe to forge. (Note: stainless steel typically contains a minimum of 11% Cr.)

Your "chrome looking" H13 was probably just more highly finished before it left the mill, such as by having the mill scale ground off. An easy way to test is to leave it outside and see if it rusts.

[4575wcf]

This is a pretty good picture of what the forged halves should look like. The first outside tapered cut has been turned.  The forging are one piece 30 inches or so long.

[Pat Masterson]

Thanks JHCC. That makes more sense now. 

[pnut]

have you seen the video "The Gunsmith" from Colonial Williamsburg? its pretty interesting and shows some old school nachining techniques.

Pnut

[anvil]

Its actually one of the inspirational vids that convinced me to become a blacksmith.

[4575wcf]

Yessir that Wallace Gusler is something.  To learn all the trades required to scratch build a flintlock and to be able to put all that knowledge together as young as he was is astounding.  Making barrels by forge welding, either with a single skelp, double skelps, or wound like damascus all went out of style with the advent of smokeless gun powders.  I have loaded and shot quite a lot of black powder shotgun shells through various antique shotguns; however. the receivers I have today were either smokeless or very late black powder era so I am sticking to the tool steels.  Either shorter bar drilled, forged and drawn out, or solid bar forged to shape and deep hole drilled, I am not sure which at this point.

[pnut]

I'd love to see your progress. I've put together a few KY long rifle kits when I was a scout but I've never scratch built one. A .25 and a .32. My sister still has the .25cal. I've taken many squirrels with it when I was a boy. 

Pnut

[4575wcf]

I have been absent from this forum for awhile, I am still fitting parts and doing stock work and the like.  I have to have the frames mechanically operational in all ways prior to fitting up a real set of barrels.  For now I am making up wooden barrels with extruded aluminum lugs and bites.  This gives some jointing practice fitting the barrels to the frames and provides a "try barrel" to fit the buttstocks, get the latches locking up, and the locks, triggers, and safeties all working properly.  The try barrels also provide a model to get any ejector mechanisms designed and functioning.  I am definitely going to need a long forge to heat about a maximum of 30" of shotgun barrel blank for the annealing and soldering operations.

[George N. M.]

.45-75:  We, or at least I, would love to see some pictures.

BTW, .45-75 Winchester Center Fire is kind of an obscure caliber.  How did you come to select it for a handle?

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[4575wcf]

I am the proud owner of Winchester Model 1876, 1 st Model open top serial # 1144 in 45/75 WCF.  I bought the gun from a gunshop in Portland OR in a reblued condition.  It came in from a collector's widow.  All through my 30's I took it to the "doctors" in Oregon and spent money on it until it was mechanically sound.  The rifle is a "whos who" of Oregon talent from the '90's, the several gunsmiths who worked on it are very elderly now, or are gone.  It is fully restored, stocked in magnificent walnut, and carries the last engraving job performed by the late Winchester engraver George Sherwood.  I don't shoot it much these days, I am afraid to leave it in the rack to set targets!  Thank you very much for asking, it is one of my passions.

[ThomasPowers]

I've always wondered about some of the Purdey & Sons guns; absolutely beautiful; but who would use them out in the field?

[JHCC]

Someone with a ghillie or a loader to carry the gun when in the field and maintain it when not.

[ThomasPowers]

Somewhat like the US$5000 pocket knives I used to see at the Guild show in the 1980's.  Actually sticking one in your pocket would do a lot of damage to it; if you put anything else in that pocket as well.  I have a Dave Hammer cowboy hat on my keychain and it stays nicely burnished in my pocket, a plus for a plain steel item.