Introduction and a small dilemma

[Shane Blodgett]

Hello, fellow metalworkers. I am just getting into ironwork as a more serious hobby with the hope of someday making it my profession, at least part time. Several years ago, I did an anthropology paper on blacksmithing as folklore (old world or specific knowledge passed down through oration and hands-on learning, so it technically qualified), and the next thing I knew I was working out of a three-burner gas knife-making forge and banging hot metal. I am now a couple of years into that journey and am looking to set up a shop.

I live in a small country town in what is technically downeast Maine, and I want to build a 16x16 Quonset Hut with open ends as my shop, but I am having a hard time coming up with the funding for the equipment to get started more seriously. I need better safety equipment, a larger forge body to work longer stock, preferably an induction heater forge (so I can smelt and cast my own custom stock as well as work the metal), a bigger anvil (I'm working off the 55 lb harbor freight anvil right now, but I want a peddinghaus 165#), and of course a quench tank for hardening those tools which will need hardening and the quench oil to go with it.

Here's where my problem is coming in. The startup cost for what I'm describing is about 15k, including the Quonset hut. If I don't have the money to invest in the tools right away, I can't work in the manner I want to work. If I continue to use the small anvil and small forge, I will be having to work longer and harder to move far less material.

I want to be working on 6' fence posts for fencing for my yard, which I cannot work in the small forge. Should I be saving up and working the smaller forge for the hammer practice, or should I wait until I have more quality equipment so I don't waste what stock I have on smaller projects? I honestly don't know and am a bit torn up about it.

The cost of getting the shop set up the way I want it to be could take more than a year to save up if I pinch every penny, I can't seem to find any grants, and I don't like the idea of a loan. I could crowd-source to raise funds, but I'm fairly sure I would not be able to raise the money I need in a strict time schedule.

Also, trying to run the gas forge and make anything involved will take a lot more time than with an induction forge, and as I am married and working a full time overnight job, finding the time to complete a project on the gas forge is difficult. It'd be a different story if I was a younger adult and a bachelor with little to no extra responsibilities, but alas, the heat of the forge settled into my heart after I grew up, got married, bought a house, and started a full time job/career that only offers me overnights and that I don't want to be in for my whole life.

TLDR; I'm stuck between an anvil and a hammer here. I need to work my metal to improve my skills, but I need better equipment to do the projects I want to be doing. I have very limited stock and somewhat limited funds, so getting the equipment may take a while. Also, finding the time to work on my trade is proving difficult, but I don't want to give up. Some advice from people who have been through similar things would prove helpful.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome from the Ozark mountains.

We won't remember your location once leaving this post, hence the suggestion to edit your profile and add it there. I suggest looking in the improvised anvil section for ideas on a better anvil.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/52308-a-collection-of-improvised-anvils/

For forging larger stock I would go with a coal or charcoal JABOD there is a section on them in solid fuel forges.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/267-jabod-just-a-box-of-dirt/

I have worked some long stock in my home made coal forge.

A Quonset Hut as a shop would be nice, however there are just as good options in the https://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/153-building-designing-a-shop/ section that would cost a lot less. A couple of members use one of those steel carports as a shop.

[Daswulf]

Just wait till you have kids! Haha.

Bigger better anvil, have you looked into a block of steel ( scrap or maybe even new stock/cutoff whatever size you want)? 

You can make other tools/holders for horn and hardy and hardy tools. 

Bigger cheaper forge, how about a solid fuel forge? You can build them to fit the size you need. (Honestly you can only work so much material at a time, so unless it is heat treating a long blade or tool you arent working all that much material at a heat. 

I can't help much on your building. That is up to you what you really need but it depends on your area, space needed, and weather upon other considerations. 

It can be an inexpensive hobby and even a build up career if you have the knowledge, skill and marketable product. 

Yes, it gets harder with responsibilities and dependents. I still have my day job due to choosing to have my lovely kids. I'm just waiting for them to get to a more independent age now to attempt re starting my independent goals of my hobby business. I'm not rushing it tho.,  Every moment is precious and an eye opener. 

 

Anyway, a block of steel is way better than a hf cast iron anvil. 

A three burner forge does not sound small to me. 

Do you have a marketable product? How can you get faster and better at making it without all the top equipment. Also prioritize that top equipment. If knife making, Other than skill and knowledge, I'd think a good quality grinder would be top priority. You could use way cheap and lesser tools to forge and heat treat them aside from good starting stock.

Don't forget the "read this first" thread. 

[George N. M.]

Dear Shane,

Welcome aboard.  Read through the threads in the Business Side of Blacksmithing.  Lots of good info there.

IMO, your highest priority is to your family.  What is best for the family is what is best for you as a husband and a person.  If your decisions regarding the craft enhance the situation of your spouse and kids then that is the way you should go.

To generate funds to advance your craft you need to get good at items that people will pay to have.  You also have to market your products whether it is on etsy, your own web site, local craft fairs, and other events.  Then, try to put everything you make into a fund to advance the craft.

Generally, solid fuel forges are cheaper to run than gas.  Induction forges may be cheaper to run but have a high initial investment plus having to have 240v service to your shop area.

Try to educate yourself about the reality of your craft being a business.  Black Bear Forge has some good videos on YT.

Not many folk are able to sustain a 1 man shop that will support themselves and their family.  Some, yes, but it is a tough row to hoe.  I suggest that you aim for the craft as a hobby that will pay for itself and then as a supplemental income over and above the day job.  That is probably more realistic, particularly with family responsibilities, than a full time occupation.

Being in Maine I would say that you would need a fully enclosed shop rather than open at the ends to be able to comfortably forge in all 4 seasons.  A pole barn structure may be less costly than a quonset hut structure and more practical giving more usable floor space.

I agree that an improvised anvil of steel would be a step up from a HF cast iron thing.  You can do a lot of good work on a chunk of steel.  Smiths used block anvils for many centuries and did magnificent work before the invention of the London Pattern in the 18th century.

Also, bigger is not better when it comes to forges.  You can only forge areas about 4-6" long before the metal cools down.  Heating anything longer is a waste of time and fuel.  You'd be surprised how well a coal or charcoal fueled JABOD works.

Good luck and keep us informed of your progress.  We LOVE pictures.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

 

[Glenn]

Use what you have now to make what you can and your skills will improve.  Those skills will serve you well in the future.

[JHCC]

As noted above, you don't need a long forge to work long pieces. This is from a session where I put a 42" radius curve into two pieces of 1-1/2" square tube:

[Charles R. Stevens]

For millennia a squarish lump of iron was an anvil, and they were on the small size. Say 3” with the face mushroomed out to 4”, so a 10# sledgehammer head or other solid steel drop will work well, add a 24-32oz ball pein and/or 2# crosspein (both will need to be dressed) or a jack with a bit of work with a grinder and you have a start. The JABOD forge is low buck, heats up to 2” stock and as you can only effectively hand forge 6” at a time more than sufficient. 

there are many a cheap...., er, frugal smith here with experience that can help you build a small smithy for cheap. Free if your a good scrounge, about $100 if your not.
iron age smiths forged swords and axes in charcoal forges on block anvils, so don’t get to complicated here. 

[ThomasPowers]

One thing: smelting is making metal from ore; not something that an induction furnace is good for.  Did you mean melting for casting?

I just spent the last couple of days doing pattern welding and other forge welding in a coal forge I built about 30+ years ago for US$5 in materials.  Getting caught in the "more expensive is better" trap can rally slow down your smithing!  My 20'x30' smithy was made with free utility poles and free propanel. I bought used steel trusses and new C purloins and new SDST screws and a used 10'x10' roll up door.  (The "man" door was  gift from our church when they replaced it with a new one.)

Yesterday was forging up some drive chain into a billet with 3 friends over to practice their pattern welding too.

Today I was working on forging barb wire basket hook icicles for Christmas tree ornaments.  Simple tools. 1 small hammer, a pair pf pliers an improvised anvil---I have close to a ton of "commercial anvils" but the improvised one was easy to move close to the forge for the delicate welding of rusty barbwire. My improvised anvil was a block of steel 5.75"x5"x10"  20 USCents a pound from my local scrapyard.  Trashing a cast iron ASO from HF will be the best step forward you can make!  (Save it for holding hardy tools.)

My suggestion: start small and hone your skills making simple items that there is a market for and pay for the shop you want!

 If you don't have the skills it doesn't matter how fancy a shop you have!

[Shane Blodgett]

Thank you all for your input. It sounds like the most important next step is for me to just use whatever I can muster up to work my skills up. I think my first project will be to use a leaf spring and see how many S Hooks I can make in a day of work. If I can make 12 in 6 hours in my gas forge, fighting against the Maine winter temperatures and the wind, I'll consider that a good start. I need to get the forge set up and warming up, and then I'll be taking pictures of the setup I have now and the project as it goes. I'll keep you all posted on how it goes.

I appreciate the readiness to offer advice and the can-do attitude of this community. The shop as I want it to be is still a way off, but I'll do what I can with what I have until I get the next thing and the next thing, and as long as I'm working at my skill, maybe it'll help the wait between equipment not feel as long as it will be.

On the note of the Quonset Hut, I purchased one on clearance a month ago. I'll be making a topic in shop design and posting pictures as I build it and tweak it and set it up. Any suggestions are welcome, and I think they'll only help me better learn and grow and forge on.

Thanks again! I can't wait to get back out there and get that hammer swinging!

[Daswulf]

I like your positive attitude and acceptance of realistic goals. That will get you going good. More experience and a passion learning all you can will get you moving up in your goals. 

 

I have to ask, did you really mean s hooks from leaf spring? Or did you mean coil spring? 

It Can be done from leaf spring but would be a bear on consumables to cut up And forge out. Then you have the issue of using leaf Or coil spring for S hooks. Generally S hooks do not require medium carbon steel. Why work harder material when it isn't necessary.  Mild steel works fine for s hooks for general use, and also you might run into issues if you water quench such steels without being thorough in knowing what they require. Not saying you would but saying in general. You could make s hooks out of either and just let them air cool but it is a poor choice of material for something unless it is a specific use S hook. 

Save your arm and use mild steel if you just need some general use S hooks. 

[ThomasPowers]

Working higher carbon steels as a new smith in cold weather is strongly not suggested!

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Shane, glad to have you. It's good to see how receptive you are to advice, it's often too easy take someone saying, THAT isn't the way to do it, Personally.

There are a number of newbie traps a person can paint themselves into and it's not just blacksmithing, happens in virtually any craft. A major trap is listing all the things you NEED to get started. This is almost never true, especially where blacksmithing is concerned. Our minimal tool list is really short. Something heavy to hammer against. Something to heat the steel / iron. Something to hammer with. Lastly something to cut the stock with. 

An anvil is literally anything you hammer on. ANYTHING. A forge or hearth means literally, "fire place," though forge has taken on so many meanings we sometimes have long discussions about the definition. Anyway your forge can be a hole in the ground or a pile of dirt on an old table or as fancy as you like. The JABOD is an excellent solid fuel forge based on what has worked for humanity for thousands of years.

Any smooth faced hammer 32oz or less is an excellent place to start. 2lbs. is plenty to do good work but still light enough it's much less likely to injure you before you notice you are getting tired. Cross pein, straight pein, ball pein are all excellent forging hammers. I keep 32oz. "drill hammers" on my go to rack. They're designed to drive drill bits in close areas, the handles are shorter giving you better accuracy while being less fatiguing. 

A yard sale cold chisel makes a fine cutting tool at the anvil. Wide masonry chisels are nicer, it takes fewer heats to cut wider stock. Of course making your own cut off chisels is part of the learning curve, as are punches and such. 

An induction forge is nice, REALLY NICE but you can equip your smithy pretty completely including some gravy items for what wiring your quanset for 50a 240v will cost. Then there's the price of an induction forge, even if you make your own. You can buy a LOT of coal or propane for a minimalist induction forge.

I'm not trying to discourage you from your dreams, dreams are good. I'm just suggesting you start making things at the anvil while you build your dreams.

I like to quote Mike Rowe on the subject, he says, "Don't follow your dreams. Bring your dreams with you."

Frosty The Lucky.

[Shane Blodgett]

To the topic of S Hooks, I used a 1/4" round stock mild steel bar to make my first solid S Hook three days ago. I set up the gas forge, discovered the problem I was having getting it up to heat the last time I used it, fixed the problem, and subsequently got my work piece to heat in 15 seconds. Had minimal scaling problems, got my scrolls in on the ends and bent my hook using a jig I designed myself that same day. I went over the whole thing with a file to give it a half-scraped iron look, and sealed it off with a coat of clear enamel. It came out to just over 6", but I designed it to be a coat hanger I could carry around at my night job with USPS, and it fit to the equipment at my job perfectly. I would like to make higher carbon S Hooks and quench them, but as there is now snow on the ground and my Quonset Hut has not yet arrived, I think that'll have to wait until spring (forging in the open in the Maine winter is stupid amounts of extra work and potentially wasted stock and fuel).

The issue with my gas forge was that the pressure was too low, so the top was getting hot, but the box was losing most of the heat. User error, nothing wrong with the forge, just didn't turn the pressure knob up after lighting the forge. I was running at 5 PSI and thinking it was 8, forgetting that pressure drops significantly once the burners are on. I adjusted to 8 PSI after lighting, and BAM! problem solved. Newbie mistakes, but now I know, so... That's a win in my book.

As to why the higher carbon S Hooks, I want to make solid mounting hooks to hang pulleys in my shop for lifting heavier items without an assistant and without hurting myself. That's a ways off, though.

Lastly, I want to address the hammer situation. I have a 3 lb smithing hammer, a ball pein, and a masonry hammer that I am using for cutoff work (nice chisel on the back end), as well as a larger 12 lb engineer's hammer that I am using as a counterweight to hold down the work for straightening at the end of my work.

Here are some pictures of my first S Hook, so you can all see where my skill level is at to start (you will notice the hammer harks, a few notable burn scars, and a slight warp on the more rounded end):

P.S. please excuse the drinking glasses on the counter.

[George N. M.]

Shane, IMO you don't need to mess about with higher C steel for S hooks for heavier loads, just up the size of your mild steel stock.  3/8, 5/16, and 1/2" stock should make S hooks that will support almost any weight you would use around the shop.  You'd be surprised how much weight your 1/4" round stock S hook will support.  Try hooking it over something solid, put a loop of rope through the lower hook and step into the loop to put your whole weight on it.  I would be surprised if it started to straighten out.

I don't think that hardening and tempering a higher C steel would give you that much improvement in tensile strength.  Also, it is a lot easier to use larger stock than messing about with heat treating for something as simple as an S hook..  Save that process for things that have a sharp edge like knives or chisels.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Frosty]

That's a pretty decent S hook Shane, it's a keeper. Using high carbon for lifting hooks is actually dangerous. It's too easy heat treating thin stock to make them unevenly hard. The transition between hard and flexible is where embrittlement can happen meaning you can have a hook that will snap rather than give and straighten. A hook that straightens gives you warning so you can take the weight off, curse a bit and either repair or replace it. If a lifting hook snaps you have BANG, broken bones or bleeding time to react.

My only suggestions for improving S hooks is to hang it on a narrow bar say a large nail and hang something from it on an equally small bail. A couple lbs. on a bailing wire loop. What this does is show you where the centers of support and the force line between them lay in your hook. How far you turn the hooks depends on your purpose, quick access and ease of release or aesthetics, any or all count, depending. 

That is NOT a criticism of your hook, it's just another aspect to take into account as you develop hooks.

Here is the one critique I have. The direction you flattened the bottom hook as seen in the pics. This provides a very small area of support for hanging clothing making it more likely to damage / tear a heavy coat.

My suggestion for coat, etc. hooks is to flatten them slightly in the direction you turn the finial scroll and hook to provide a wide smooth surface of support for the coat.

Another thing to think about making hooks. If you flatten the hook itself SLIGHTLY in the area where the line of force passes through the hooks they will be less likely to give without causing embrittlement. Look at a commercial hook for an example, they are forged in a tear drop shape for structural strength. 

Once again, well done on your first hook, keep it up.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

What he said!  Failure mode for a mild steel hook is straightening.  Failure mode for HC is breaking.  The first gives you time to get out of the way, the second kills you.

Also when we make S hooks from sq stock, we taper the ends; however the yield strength of the hook is based on the cross sectional area at the cusp of the bend. So I tell students to put the bend in the full size stock area and leave the tapered section "for pretty" on the end.