Not fitting individual spindles to stone in garden railings

[railingspotter]

Hi - I'm looking to get period-style garden railings installed and I want to see if anyone can tell me the truth about this...

I absolutely love original Victorian railings. And I hate how almost all modern replacements use a lower rail to link up the spindles, instead of having each one individually set into the coving stone. It just screams "not as good as it used to be"!

I've asked two blacksmiths if they'll set the rails individually and both tried to convince me it's not worth it  / not structurally beneficial. Really?? Surely the railings are much, much stronger when there's 30-odd fixings instead of just 3 along a stretch of wall? And if I notice the aesthetic difference, then surely others do too?

Am I just being a difficult customer or am I right to hold my ground with this? Be honest as you like

(And while I'm at it... will powder coated galvanised steel really "last a lifetime" like I've been told? I know cast iron is expensive but I reckon it's gotta be for a reason...)

[ThomasPowers]

Well just galvanized steel will last several lifetimes where I live.  Can I assume you live in the American Southwest Desert or that the conditions where you live are quite similar?

Are you wanting them set in lead?  If so you may have difficulties find people with the training to do it that way.  You may want to inquire at historical places that have had such items replaced as to who did their work and the cost of "Doing it right!"   

Drills for stone work are fairly common and various mortar's and epoxy systems work well for mounting iron in stone.  The issue is finding people who have the tools and experience to do so.  Perhaps have the smith make the spindles and a mason mount them? 

[Glenn]

Powder coating is only as good as the application on bare metal and the entire finish stays sound without cracks, chips, or damage.  If moisture gets under the surface, you have to strip off the powder coating and reapply.  

Good quality paint with a good base coat primer and application is easily repaired if chipped or damaged.  

The maintenance of the finish coating on metal is an ongoing effort (many times worth more than the metal work) and if done properly the project will last for years. 

[railingspotter]

ThomasPowers: I live in Edinburgh so crappy weather is the norm, but it sounds like I might be under-estimating steel. Re the setting material I hadn't thought about this & as long as the modern resins are a good substitute I have no problem with them (although https://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/lead-fixing-ironwork/lead-fixing-ironwork.htm warns that it's a "relatively recent technology ... and there may be difficulties associated with this system which have yet to come to light").

Asking a mason to do the mounting sounds like an excellent idea. I already have one coming over to quote for re-rendering my sandstone facade (butchered in the '70s) - maybe he'll fancy an extra job

Glenn: It sounds like you're a bigger fan of painting then, even for steel? That suits me fine as I had presumed (maybe wrongly) that paint will look less 'polished' than powdercoating, which is great as the imperfections / lumpiness make it look more authentic. I'm very willing to apply a new coat every few years as required - seems well worth the effort to keep it tiptop.

Thank you both for replying

[Glenn]

I have seen the results of moisture getting under powder coating and there is no way to stop the damage once it is started.

Hollywood and the movie industry can use paint to make things look any way they want.  Want a stone wall, paint it to be stone.  Want a brick wall, paint it to be brick.  Want a particular background, paint a piece of canvas to be what ever you want, forest, city overlook, dungeon, cave, etc.

  Cars used to come with a small bottle of paint to touch up or repair any dings from gravel hitting the surface of the paint.

 

[JHCC]

The same issues apply to painting as apply to powder coating: if the surface isn't properly prepared, the finish *will* flake off. However, as Glenn notes, paint is easier to repair. Imagine having to remove the entire railing to ship it back to the shop to be completely stripped and refinished every time the railing gets bumped or scraped.

Also, please clarify what you mean by "last a lifetime". Galapagos tortoise? Mayfly? Bristlecone pine? Chernobyl emergency responder in 1986? We need data!

[railingspotter]

Haha well I'm 38 and if I'm going to spend a few grand on this then I certainly want them to outlive me! Edinburgh is full of so many stunning railings that have lasted 200 years. I'd just like my railings to be consistent with them (if not as grand) and to look like good-quality, long-lasting replicas. There's a lot of cheap tat in this city as well...

[ThomasPowers]

Historically wrought iron railings look light and airy as wrought iron is a lot stronger than cast iron.  Cast iron is very good for a heavy massive look.  Where things get odd is when people want wrought iron to mimic cast iron. (The other way around is hardly ever done as making cast iron mimic wrought iron would leave it so weak that a boy rattling a stick along it might break pieces off!)  (The ironwork of Jean Tijou is a great example of how wrought iron can look.)

I had a coworker from Edinburgh working out here in New Mexico, he used to ask "What's that great big bright blindy thing in the sky?" When exiting the building when going out to lunch.  Crappy weather out here is 112 degF (appx 44 degC) and blazing sun with relative humidity in the single digits.

[railingspotter]

Wow, so I walked past these wrought iron gates dozens of times when I lived in London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Tijou#/media/File:Gates_to_Kensington_Palace_(24156107225).jpg Great to know who made them! 

The "heavy massive look" sounds right for the surviving cast iron railings in Edinburgh's late Victorian suburbs. I'd say 90% of these railings are gone thanks to the war effort, but they were left in situ around basement flats & other areas where removal would be dangerous for residents. (They must indeed be brittle, as you quite often see finials snapped off.)

In the posher centre of the city there's some real monsters, my personal favourite (wrought?): https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.9482095,-3.1919821,3a,21.1y,243.89h,86.94t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s1nQKOx4k0H6FehpRSUdncQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D1nQKOx4k0H6FehpRSUdncQ%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D148.41814%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Anyway a simple but substantial fleur design will fit perfectly in my area. I definitely want the cast iron 'look', and it sounds like that should be achievable with either material - cast iron or galvanised steel - just as long as the dimensions are correct & I opt for paint & find reputable tradesmen. Will be interesting to see if there's a big price difference between the two.

[JHCC]

The railings on the George IV Bridge are cast iron, not wrought.

[ThomasPowers]

Custom cast iron is very much subject to economies of scale.  There is a big expense making the pattern, then just an incremental cost per casting.   (There used to be a nice video on how the cast iron common in New Orleans, USA, was duplicated by taking moulds off the originals and casting them.)

A small shop can do quite extensive wrought iron work where cast iron is definitely getting industrial!  However "bespoke" work is quite expensive.    Much of the semi custom work is being done by welding up premade components and there are some quite nice ones being sold by places like indital.com which forge them industrially.

Note that hot dip galvanization is generally more rugged in bad weather conditions than high zinc primers---I saw a lot of modern work done that way in Bavaria.

[JHCC]

“High-zinc primer” would be the so-called “spray-on galvanization”?

[SmoothBore]

I'm no fan of powder coating.

 

Yes, if the surface prep is done correctly, it has merit. But even so, it will eventually fail, and be very difficult to repair.

 

Good quality oil base paint is, in my opinion, a better choice.

 

.

[Frosty]

Powder coating is brittle and very much flex in the rail will cause cracks which will allow water infiltration. 

A good oil based enamel is flexible, will last years and is easy to touch up. 

I've had really good luck with industrial grade epoxy over an acid etch epoxy primer but it's expensive. 

No John: Somebody in marketing might try and sell zinc primer as spray galvanizing but it's not.

Marine supplies are a good place to find spray galvanizing. 

If I were doing it myself I'd try electroplating it with zinc. Some lumber and visquine would make a tank large enough and a battery charger will do the dead. 

If I were making the railing in question I'd haul it to the plater in Anchorage, they've been in business for 80+ years easy and are always up for something interesting. That's here though.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Glenn]

The preparation is ALWAYS the place to start. 

The best preparation for anything, with no short cuts, and no *that is good enough* is the proper way to go.  Painting is the same, get it down to good metal by removing the crud, dirt, oils from you hands, etc and then build up the protective coating using good materials at every stage of the process.  At some point there will be a compromise or failure in the coating.  The coating should be able to be repaired or replaced when this happens.  

[anvil]

To answer some of your questions. Yes I'd call you a difficult customer, not for what you want but because you have far too little knowledge to be making the conclusions you have made.

Most important, iron restoration/reproduction in all of Europe including England is a good business. If you look hard enough, you should be able to find a Craftsman to satisfy your needs.

A top and bottom horizontal rail is common throughout history. You will find this from Gothic to contemporary. However if you want all pickets set in stone, that's your choice as a client. 

Lead fasteners are not new. Been in common use at least since the 9th century.

I'm going to put on my Thomas hat for a moment. So you want "traditional" iron but you want a contemporary finish?

The use of cast iron is relatively new in architectural use. Roughly since  the1850's. I think this was mentioned. It started out the molds were made from forged pieces. During the time when cast iron was most creative, the molds were a one off deal. Meaning one job, one set of molds. It didn't take long to figure the economics and the best use of molds was multiple uses. Thus endeth it's creativity and it's use today for architectural use. You will need very deep pockets if you want someone to make molds to match your design in our age.

Primed and painted anywhere should be at least, if not longer a 10 year finish. 

A general rule is simple is more expensive. A "simple fleur"? One of my shop rules is when a client says "it should be pretty simple" ,,, time to stand up and take notice,,, and triple the price.