Thinking about Oxy-Propane

[JHCC]

The Smith gas saver has arrived from Cyberweld, and now I start thinking about how to mount it on my welding cart/torch stand. One thought that occurs to me: Since the tanks and the gas saver will be right next to each other, could I cut, say, three feet off one end of the hose, attach the appropriate connectors* to the cut ends, and then run (A) the short hoses between the regulators and the gas saver and (B) the long hoses between the gas saver and the torch? I know I could probably get custom short hoses made easily enough, but this looks like a substantially more affordable option.

*like these:

[Frosty]

On 4/21/2021 at 1:49 AM, Steven NY said:

dishonesty is on the part of "torchtools[dot]com" not Gentec itself.

Just so, my bad. I misspoke, heck had it just plain wrong. Thanks for catching that blunder.

It's good having back up.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Anachronist58]

2 hours ago, JHCC said:

Since the tanks and the gas saver will be right next to each other,

JHCC, is it not true, that with the Gas Saver, upon re-ignition the torch will be fully turned up, and thus, you would not want the tanks right next to the gas saver?  I know that the invisible part of the flame coming out of my cutting torch is pretty darned long...

Robert Taylor

[Frosty]

Yes, the torch is adjusted IF it was when you hung it up. You learn to aim the torch tip UP when you lift it off the hook and light it so the flame comes nowhere near the tanks.

The ones mounted on the oxy acet tanks in the spinning shop held the rosebud so you couldn't lift it off the lever without it being aimed at the pilot. In fact the "gas savers" mounted literally on the oxy cylinder.

We're talking late 50s tech in Dad's shop.

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

This is my present thinking about layout. From the user’s point of view,  the tanks are on the far right, the gas saver is on the left with the hook to its the right-hand side, and possibly a metal shield between the torch area and the tank/regulator area. The work area is to the far left.

Since I’m right handed, picking up the torch and moving it to the work area will automatically move it across the pilot light. When the torch is returned to the hook, the shield will prevent the torch and its flame from invading the tank area. 

Thoughts?

Also, input on the cut-hose-and-connector-installation idea I posted above?

[Anachronist58]

JHCC, Those appear to be the proper fittings.  If you look at your already made-up hoses, you will see that there are ferrules that secure the hose to the barb.  Anyone here know best practice?  This being a public forum, I hesitate to post my sub-par thoughts on work-arounds...

As for your proposed setup,  I would like to hear what others think:  Not sure the shield is required - what is required, is that the torch flame has no chance of being accidentally pointed in the wrong direction...

Robert Taylor

[ThomasPowers]

I'd be more worried about the flame hitting a hose than a tank.  

[Anachronist58]

Me too...

[JHCC]

22 minutes ago, Anachronist58 said:

If you look at your already made-up hoses, you will see that there are ferrules that secure the hose to the barb.  Anyone here know best practice? 

Crimped ferrules do seem to be the standard for pre-made and custom hoses, and one can purchase repair kits that include such ferrules and their crimper. I have also seen some heavy-duty hose clamps like this: 

Which seems a lot more secure than the usual worm-gear versions like this:

11 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

I'd be more worried about the flame hitting a hose than a tank.  

In general, or in this proposed setup in particular?

[ThomasPowers]

In general. Tanks being steel, wont have any issues with casual  flame impingement.  Hoses, not being steel have a much faster Ut-Oh point.

[JHCC]

Understood. So, in this particular case, you would recommend including the shield? And perhaps even extending it horizontally under the torch-holding area, to protect the hoses running from the tanks to the gas saver?

[Anachronist58]

I am not so much in favor of shields, as I am of making sure that the hose hangs properly laid on its hanger, and the path that your torch travels from its hanger to the work and back, by its nature, does NOT have components in the flame path.  I would not have shields at all, but that is due to the operation habits that I have developed, including, when I am using a torch, keeping my attention on the awesome energy exiting the nozzle...

Edited April 23, 2021 by Anachronist58
clarification

[JHCC]

As I have it mocked up in my brain, the torch path wouldn't impinge on either the tanks or the hoses; the shields would be more insurance than anything else. 

[Anachronist58]

You could always add the shields after the fact, if you find them advisable.  still trying to locate a citation for screw-type hose clamps, so far, it is ferrule, ferrule, ferrule...

OK, just found your heavy duty hose clamp being sold in a repair kit on "regulator and torch exchange inc.", "welding hose repair kits and fitting"

"regulator torch repair dot  com"

Edited April 23, 2021 by Anachronist58
Addendum

[teenylittlemetalguy]

On 4/22/2021 at 1:04 PM, JHCC said:

 cut, say, three feet off one end of the hose

Someday, you will be wishing you had just a little longer reach....

3 hours ago, Anachronist58 said:

 This being a public forum, I hesitate to post my sub-par thoughts on work-arounds...

You and me brother!

[JHCC]

3 hours ago, teenylittlemetalguy said:

Someday, you will be wishing you had just a little longer reach....

Not unless I move to another shop — this one isn’t even 25 feet in the long dimension.

6 hours ago, Anachronist58 said:

OK, just found your heavy duty hose clamp being sold in a repair kit

That’s the kind of thing I had in mind, yes. Although given the price, it might be easier and not much more expensive simply to get another 25 foot hose from Cyberweld. 

I really do need to find out how much custom hoses would be. 

[JHCC]

A number of websites that sell hose fittings also have "welding hose ear clamps" like this:

which get crimped with a fancy-schmancy tool that's basically a pair of nippers. I'm thinking this could be a good low-cost option, especially if I can find a place that sells the hose fittings and the clamps that doesn't also want to charge me ten bucks for express shipping.

[JHCC]

(Although further research seems to indicate that these may not be acceptable for propane use. Investigation continues.)

[JHCC]

Hmm. It seems that the "heavy duty hose clamps" mentioned above are also used on high-pressure fuel injection lines, and are therefore available from my local auto parts store for about $3.50 for a pack of four. I found a source for the "B" fittings that's about $7.50 for the set of four, so that means I could do the cut-and-convert process for about a third of the price of getting an entire new hose. That's looking appealing, since it doesn't look like anywhere around here does custom hoses.

Thoughts?

[JHCC]

4 hours ago, JHCC said:

(Although further research seems to indicate that these may not be acceptable for propane use. Investigation continues.)

I think I may have to take that back. I've found a couple of sources that say things like this (from the Technical Welding Product Manager of Wilhelmsen Ship Services):

Quote

Ear clamps offer a better and safer solution compared to screw type-mounting hoses. In some countries the use of screw type (worm type/jubilee clips) is not allowed. Ear clamps are then the recommended hose clamp.

I guess ear clamps might be a possibility after all.

 

[JHCC]

Further research turns up the “single-ear” version, which is designed to put equal pressure all the way around the circumference of the hose. These examples are from my local hardware store:

Thoughts?

[Frosty]

John, I hate to interrupt your researching into alternatives to the tried and true but have you checked code? There are some pretty strict rules and regulations regarding oxy fuel torches. Ferruls are accepted anywhere I know.

I've never seen a gas saver with a shield of any kind. A person would have to try to run a torch flame across the hose and would regret it instantly. NOT because s/he'd be encased in flames but the smell of burnt torch hoses are unmistakably B A D. 

People have had torch hoses strung out all over work sites for probably a century and I've never heard of a hose burning through. Being cut, torn, etc. oh yeah but not burned through. 

Believe me if you run a torch across either one of the hoses, the better half will have your tender half and shaking for stinking up the house. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

Ohio code states:

”Hose connections shall be clamped or otherwise securely fastened in a manner that will withstand, without leakage, twice the pressure to which they are normally subjected in service, but in no case less than three hundred pounds per square inch.”

Nothing said about what types of fastenings are acceptable and what aren’t, just the strength rating. Not sure how one would test that. 

[Frosty]

Sounds awfully sensible for code to me but looks good.

I sometimes get so involved in a thing I miss the obvious and code seemed to be obvious enough for me to miss, so I asked. 

Jer

[JHCC]

An inquiry on the local "What Do You Have/What Do You Need?" Facebook group turned up someone nearby with the proper crimping pliers. I'll plan on ordering the fittings and using the crimped ferrules once the hose actually arrives.