switching to coal?

[larrynjr]

With the rising cost of propane, $3.09 a gal. here near Yakima, Wa. I've been wondering if switching to coal might be more economical. With my current setup using propane I'm getting roughly 12 hours out of my 25 gal. tank. Cost about $60-75 to refill the tank. How much coal can you get for that much money and how many hours of forging would you expect to get out of much coal?

[Sabre]

well i just started using coal and ive used maby 10 pounds for 3 -1/2 hours .. maby im wrong.....i dunno can somene correct me?

[jayco]

Larry, that seems to average out to about $6 per hour of forging.
I have no idea what coal costs out where you live, but I'm thinking coal (even if you have to buy by the sack) would be cheaper than that.

There was a thread a while back about coal consumption........I think everyone pretty much settled on the idea that it took about a 5 gal. bucket for a typical day of forging........of course, that can vary a lot........depending on how large a fire you need and what you're forging.

If you can build a fire in your back yard,(some folks can't), you might think about making your own charcoal.It's a good clean burning fuel, and really cheap,....if you make it yourself.

James Flannery

[Teachingclay]

I hate to promote walmart but they and lowes/home depot sell hardwood lump coal for a little less than $1.00 a pound. which has got to be cheaper than what you are spending on propane.

[Dave M]

There are a couple of down sides to coal. If you have your forge inside you will now need a good drafting chimeny to vent it. Then there is the coal storage issue, you have dust and keeping the coal dry plus the start up smoke and the smell of starting the forge even with good coke. Don't get me wrong I love coal but when I built the new shop I forgot about the cost of the chimeny and placement of it. With the gasser I just throw open a door or turn on the venting fan push the button and poof fire when done turn off gas and leave. But the cost of propane has made me be in no rush to replace my propane forge that I sold:(.

[Bentiron1946]

Here in the Phoenix Metro area there is not really a good retail supplier of coal, not Lowe's or Home Depot and the Farmer Co-Op burned down. The blacksmith club brings in coal for the membership from Colorado or at least in the past it did. Since I'm no longer a member I don't know what they do but there is no industry here that uses it, there are no mines close by and it was not used to heat homes in the past. The closest mines are in the northeast part of the state on the Navajo reservation or in adjoining states so by the time you go get it and bring it back, propane is most likely cheaper and it sure keeps the neighbor happier.:D

[rthibeau]

Figure one 5 gal bucket holds 33 lbs of coal and sells for about $8. In your price range that would be about 8 or 9 buckets = 260 - 290 lbs of coal. Forging small stuff 1 lb of coal could last half an hour = around 135 hours. Forging bigger and hotter, cut that in half = still over 60 hours. These numbers are based on coal prices and use in my area, YMMV. Even cut the hours in half again and you still get almost 3 times the hours to forge using coal vs propane for the same amount of money. This does not take into consideration efficiency and ease of use propane vs coal, and with coal if inside you need a chimney, etc. Seems to me I get a lot more than 12 hours out of a 25 gal tank of propane, but coal still is cheaper than gas as far as how many forging hours do you get dollar for dollar.

[yesteryearforge]

I like coal
although i have two gassers ive only used them about twice.
I like the smell , dust , grit , feel, smoke and the fire it produces.
To me using propane is like useing a clawhammer to forge with ( can you forge with a claw hammer - sure you can but it just aint right ).
Or maybe one of those fiberglass handled hammers with the rubber grips.
But then I dont do this for a living either / if I did I would use whatever was the most cost effective.
I have a propane filling station at the plant where I can fill the bottles and run them thru the company ( which is pretty convienant ) easy access and no cost but I still prefer hand cranked , coal fired forges , -- its one of the reasons that I was drawn in and addicted to this mayhem in the first place.

Mike Tanner

[bipolarandy]

Im hoping to switch over from propane to natural gas before the fall. I believe the cost difference is around a 1/3 of what propane is for the same Btu/hours.

[Doug C]

For $70 I can get about 400lb of coal, 13 buckets, so coal it is for me. Plus I am a tight fisted old cuss and want the most bang for my buck. Also an old brake drum forge is cheaper to make than one of those gassers!!! But I have to admit I would really like to try one out just to see if there is a difference in what you can do and how well you can control your heat.

I bet that each has its place, strengths and weakness'.

[Rich Hale]

Pieh Tool in Camp Verde AZ has smithing coal.

[John Martin]

What about charcoal. It costs me $2.50-$2.80 to for an hour at a high heat. $5.50 to run at welding heat an hour. Either way, I can buy 20lb of charcoal for $10 and it last me about 3 1/2 to 4 hours. And you can make it to. If you are considering charcoal at all, I recommend Grove Charcoal Company - Cedar Grove, Wisconsin (WI)

[Jymm Hoffman]

I used coal for over 13 years as a full time smith. I got tired of chasing after the good stuff, plus all of the other headaches that are not listed in the cost of using coal. One, going to get it (or paying for the shipping,) the time involved in cleaning out the fire pot, hauling the ashes to some place out of the shop, time to start the fire, time to haul the coal into the shop (I never kept the entire supply in the shop.) Not all coal is good for forge work, especially if you want to forge weld and I do a fair amount of forge welding. I had "free" coal that turned out to not be worth the time to get it. I also had stuff that was so good it hardly smoked and had very, very, very little clinker. Now if I could afford to buy 2 semi loads of really good stuff, plus a place to store it, I doubt that I would take it. If you have never worked with it, find a place to try it for a while.

In 1993 I switched to propane. My first forge was based on one from a fellow in Western New York (south of where I was living a the time.) It was built up of large fire brick, opened up to about 18" wide, 9" deep, about 4" high, and the top could easily be lifted up to accommodate larger work. It worked well and burnt about 1 1/2 gallons per hour, best estimate I could come up with. After moving to the Pittsburgh area, I started experimenting with smaller forges, the shells being built from old 20 pound propane tanks. I have also built a couple of larger ones, 1 from a 30 pound tank, and one from a cut down 100 pound tank to get more width. I do not have a flow meter, but estimate my propane usage (others using my systems have similar results,) the 2 burner in the 20 pound tank size burns about 1/2 gallon per hour. The 3 burners run 3/4 to 1 gallon per hour. I have built both naturally aspirated and blown systems. I prefer the blown system, it gets to temperature faster and uses less fuel. Even with the price of propane going up, I don't have to get it, I have two 125 gallon tanks outside of the building. Since I have 2 semi permanent forging stations and occasionally teach in my shop running 6 to 8 forges I have a manifold system of black pipe bringing the fuel into the building with several locations to hook up the forges. I also do production work and frequently have more the one iron in the fire, much harder to do that with coal. What I have to do to get my propane is to check the tanks occasionally and call my supplier, if they have not tended to the tanks before I thought of it. To light the fire is really hard, throw a match into it and go! In no more, less time than lighting a coal fire, I am forging. In my shop, the bottom line to me is pounding hot metal, the heat source needs to be clean and get to the temperatures needed for welding and can be cut down. Cost is a factor, but the hidden costs have to be taken into account as well. The more time I get to pound hot metal, the more money I make (and most of the time I still have fun doing it.) There is no clean up or ash to remove, and no smoke to bother the neighbors. Plus the only black buggers I get is now from grinding. I feel that I am healthier and have fewer respiratory problems since switching to propane. And no, not all propane forges are built a like.

Attached is a photo of my heavily used 2 burner 20 pound tank forge. I lovingly call it Ugly Betty. It has been through many changes, but it works great and I was using it today. You would be amazed at the size projects that can be done out of this. I will also be teaching a workshop in Buffalo this weekend in which this is the only style forge we will be using, 8 of them to be exact.

[Jymm Hoffman]

PS, I do use hardwood charcoal when I demonstrate with my historical traveling forge. It is more expensive to use than good coal, but less harsh on my vocal cords, as well as no complaints from the small amounts of smoke.

[Finnr]

I tend to use charcoal for demos. It's far more neighbor friendly when you are set up near other merchants.
Finnr

[larrynjr]

Jymm, can you post a larger picture of your forge? When I click on the attachment it isn't any bigger than the thumbnail.

I know if I were to switch to coal, I'd have a learning curve as I've never forged with or tended a coal fire. Charcoal I could probably figure out. I think I just need to tweak my gas forge some more to get the best performance for the least gas usage.

[coltpax]

I love the smell and everything of coal, but hate all the hassles of working with it. Storage and all that mess everyone else mentioned. I used coal for about 1 yr. then i switched to propane. I like propane a heck of a lot better. Just light it and go. I found one thing that was kind of in between propane and coal, and its called "Cowboy Charcoal". Its sold at lowes, and its that old style charcoal. Its about $6 for one of the bags, and the bags would last me about 3 hrs. at welding heat. It would probably last longer with a hand crank blower or a small electric blower, but i had neither so i used a leaf blower. Big hole in the bottom of my coal forge from that, but thats a different story.

[Dave Leppo]

The ammount of coal consumed, i have found, can vary widely. One must use strict fire management to keep it to a minimum. I use an electric blower, and i think i would like to switch to a manual blower / bellows of some kind. I visited a professional smith a few months ago, and he uses about half the coal i use as a hobbieist!



I'm trying to do better. ;)

[Jymm Hoffman]

The charcoal I use for public demos is the real hardwood charcoal, sometimes Cowboy brand if I can't get another local made company. Don't bother with brickettes. Kingsford is now being made in Argentina, (while there are still plenty of producers in the U.S.!)

Is this better? I have changed the manifold of the burners, photos included. First photo is Ugly Betty (2 burner,) second is Bertha, the larger 3 burner with a sid door. The questions I ask people when wanting a larger forge: How much can you pound on at one time? Do you have a power hammer? Are you making a lot of large bends? That has a lot to do with required size. Otherwise you are waisting fuel, same as building too big of a coal or charcoal fire.

More on these later, I am off to load and get ready for the class in Buffalo.

[Pault17]

Jymm,
Ugly Betty & Bertha are truly apt names for the forges. But, much like oysters, the pearls that come from them far outweigh the aesthetics. My first car was a 68 vw beetle that I had to rebuild the guts of. I loved it because everybody called it ugly, but I knew it was a beautiful car.

Thanks for sharing the pictures

[ThomasPowers]

If you are a charcoal aficianado and don't buy it in 40# sacks from the manufacturer; may I suggest talking to the manager at the local store you buy it at and ask to buyout what ever they have left at the end of the "season". Often you can buy a pallet load for half price as they need to get rid of it for the next season's stuff. Takes some upfront money; but in the long run it's way cheaper and who knows they might be interested in smithing and start dropping by with damaged bags of charcoal for free....

[draper84]

that sounds like a great idea, +1 for coal, i'm just beginning but i used a 40 pound bag of coal in about 10 hours, and i like the nostalgia of the coal. plus there can be no price tag for the lessons learned in patience when starting a coal fire

[Bentiron1946]

Verde Valley is not a short drive either and I don't know how much coal I can fit in my Hond Insight. How do you feel about burning coal on no burn days? Our air pollution gets pretty bad as it is during the winter. I guess it depends on where you live, what you drive, how big a fire you need, how much money you have to spend, lot of different factors.:rolleyes:

[ChrisB]

Anybody ever try this stuff?

http://www.kamadocharcoal.com/

Buy a whole pallet and split it with a few smiths or BBQ guys

I have a big green egg smoker/cooker/BBQ that uses Natural Charcoal. So I always have a bag or two around the house. Having haunted the "Egg" forum for some time the serious guys buy a pallet of charcoal at a time to save big $ and ensure they always have some on hand.

Around here I can usually find..

Cowboy brand at Lowes $5-6 for 10lbs
Royal Oak at Wally World $ varies usually 10lbs
BGE brand (Royal Oak) at the "egg store" for $20 for 20lbs
Qik Joe at True Value $12 for 20lbs (has an odd flavor at times)

[John Martin]

Grove Charcoal Man all the way, however, I am doing research on the brands that you listed and am going to give my charcoal provider a call tomorrow to see what a pallet of charcoal would cost. I'm thinking around $200 for 500lb.