The Forge That I Am Buying

[Rich Hale]

Browns farrier supplies in Tempe likely has everything you asked about in stock.

[AtomicForge]

this what your talking about NC Whisper Momma Atmospheric Forge, Open End Model

well are the tongs the right ones? or should i get these tongs. And also what kind of bar stock do i want to start making knifes with?

[ThomasPowers]

Yes that will work; as will a much cheaper assemblage.

BTW the right set of tongs to get depends on what you will be using them for, something you have not mentioned.

I would also say don't worry about forge welding when you are just getting started!

[AtomicForge]

well im going to be doing knife making so what kind of tongs? And im trimming that down to about $800 i think. Im cutting out the stands cause i think i can manage with something for the forge, and wil the anvil be fine just siting on the concrete?

[ThomasPowers]

I once built a complete starter kit for under US$25 with forge, blower, anvil and basic tools just to show it could be done---also the fanciest tool I used to build it was a 1/4" drill.

This was not a barely there set up. I used it as my primary billet welding forge for several years. Yes I knew what I was doing and yes I'm a good scrounger.

Knifemaking tongs: you will need a set of tongs that will grab the stock as you get it---something like auto coil springs will need a very different set of tongs than 1/4x1" flat stock.

You will also need a set of tongs to grab it when it's forged down to tang sized---I have a short snubnosed set of farriers tongs that are sized at about 1/4" that are my favorite knife making tongs as that's close to tang sized for me. generally I will take a half turn of a coil spring, (either hot cut or cut with an angle grinder), heat it and straighten it and forge down the end so I can grab it with my favorite tongs and then flip it end for end, change tongs to the small ones and go to town!

Tongs for pattern welded billets tend to range larger and longer to hold them when they are fat. until I work the billet down to finial size.

[AtomicForge]

Is flat stock the best for making knifes?

[ThomasPowers]

Yes, no, maybe; depending on the specifics of the stock, knife and the processes used.

May I commend to your attention "The Complete Bladesmith, The Master Bladesmith and The Pattern Welded Blade" all written by James Hrisoulas and should be able to ILL them, inter library loan, from almost any public library in the USA.

Read them a couple of times and you will know more than a hundred hours spent on the internet.

[AtomicForge]

Oh xxxx my head hurts

[Rich Hale]

And the $50 knife shop by Wayne Goddard will let you follow Thomas' lead

[AtomicForge]

Alrighty, lol looks like im not ordering today gotta do some more reserch it apears

[AtomicForge]

Well i alsmot have everything i need to do some blacksmithing just i need tongs. I will be making knifes so does anyone know a good tong size and what type of tongs i need? Answer quick please i have to go soon.

[Sabre]

try making some. there is 3 or 4 bps on makin them...

Thats what im doing tonight.

[hammerkid]

All that depends onwhat size stock you wanna use. I REALLY like bp0099 I made some the other night like em and they turn out great.

[AtomicForge]

well what size stock is best for knifes, *sigh* one question leads to the next :)

[AtomicForge]

Well what size stock do you guys use for knifes?

[Finnr]

what kind/size knife are we talking?
Finnr

[Frosty]

Do you have an idea of what you want to do? I mean besides make knives.

So far you're shotgunning questions wanting answers ASAP and it seems you don't even know what you want to do.

What size knives do YOU want to make?

Shape? Style? Furniture? Utility, show, fantasy?

Do you think maybe learning to forge before you start making knives might be in order? You don't have to of course you can make perfectly fine knives via stock removal. And not have to worry about forges, anvils, tongs, hammers, learning blacksmithing, or any of the other things that seem to have you in such an uproar.

If you really want to forge blades you're going to have to slow down, do some research on your own and make a few basic decisions. If as it seems you don't know enough to make the basic decisions, you're a long way from successfully making a blade.

I'm not trying to discourage you, I'd really like to see you succeed but you have to know enough to process the info when it's presented. Seriously, a number of your questions only require you to slow down and think about it and a number have already been answered.

Frosty

[Rich Hale]

AF before you jump in too far with this knife thing ,,from your posts it seems you are new to this, let me suggest you learn a bit about how metal moves and how the rest of the tools can help you before you step right into knives. If you have done that already never mind....lol

[KevinD]

What a thread... :D

[AtomicForge]

Well im trying to think if i want to get a Gas or Coal forge. I am going to be making knifes and tools and i really can not make up my mind. Here take a look at the ones i have in mind.

Coal Forge:C-37 Coal Forge with Coke Firepot and Hood
Blower for Coal Forge:115 volt Dayton Blower

Gas Forge:NC Whisper Daddy #2 Forge with Open End Ports

[racer3j]

Hey, Atomic-- for$825 I'll build you a coal forge with robotic arms and you won't need tongs/ I'm about half serious here.

I have some long ago forging experience- gunsmith shop and RR anvils and I think Plumb brand Pien Hammers( always liked the looks of the red mahogany finish on the handles.) My re-entry is taking some practice(I'm 62 years old- guess I don't have the oomph I used to have). Before the broken back episodes I was 6" and 195 #'s and all guts and no talent -in the deadliest racecar God ever granted passage to. I was strong and my stamina usually matched my goals.

So, with both of us new, let us discuss:
1. Can you weld,torch tig, stick or monkey?

2. Are you living out of town a bit where the ringing of an anvil will not result in neighbors throwing their cats at you?

3. Have you latched onto a good anvil, built a stand and chained it down or made brackets to lag into a wooden stand?

4. Do you have plenty of cold-rolled steel stock, maybe 1/2" x 1" to fuller and draw out for practice before you start with ATS34 or even my lowly favorite, O1?

5. Have you taken even just a propane torch and played it on a piece of polished steel barstock to watch the color ranges- they appear on the surface of such a bar and you can learn- you won't get a feel for true heating of solid stock heated through, but you will get the idea.

6. Have you read Weygaert or the other respected authors?

7.Have you figured out what hardy tools you will need?

8. Have you considered learning controlled shaping by making your own tongs- maybe buy one or two from Glen S. as examples?

9. If you already have your anvil, have you gently dressed it, radiused a dedicated edge portion for less abrupt angle shaping?

10.Ebay-- Unlike others here I wonder if you have given serious consideration to buying from one of the three reliable gas forge builders there. Each has something different to offer. Mine is from HM Ironworks, but "Poor Boy" has sensible starter forges and so does"looper" even though they bicker about who is best? My $325(HM) two burner ceramic board lined, coated with ITC-100 is quite versatile- I can adjust the burners for slight fuel heavy mix(carburizing flame) and it gets very hot, very fast. Before I laid out the "jack", Jim and I had three phone conservations- all straight from the shoulder honesty. The needle valves used by these fellows are good quality and can be adjusted to a whisker. Knowing what I know now, I would likely have bought an Ellis 8- or would have welded up one myself.

11. Have you heard of Hybridburners, Rex Price, have you memorized Ron Reil's site- by the way, our Frosty contributed a great deal to those efforts- he just isn't a braggart.

12. Do you have a hands on mentor close by so you don't spend all of your allotment of cuss words, before you get the hang of things and know how to ration them out?

Atomic- I own around 10 custom knives, by well respected makers- as to one of those makers, I have an early non-touchmarked bowie that did not meet the maker's standards. Had you or I made it, we would be stopping people on the street to make them gaze at it in awe.

Step back a bit and ponder these points. Then decide upon your course, guided by others here-not I- and start small- small does not mean junk, but build up to making knives and tools. Get your heat, anvil, hammer and tongs and do what I have had to do- practice- round rod into square, square rod drawn and shaped to a point, flatstock even flatter without wild ripples all over the place, then re-shaped again, back to as round as you can get it.

I preach all of this so that when you take that good piece of high carbon steel and start the heat, you will have some chance of shaping a usable knife- and the more usable knives you do thereafter, each will be better looking and will finally be a source of pride; you will be proud to put that touchmark upon it. Regards, mike

***PS*** If I do not make a run to Chicago this weekend to sell some woodworking tools( and to pick up a post vise and an edge sander), I will get to try cable forge welding- thanks to a member here who has been so generous and patient in helping me ease back into this fascinating craft. Thanks, BG.mt

Edited July 31, 2008 by racer3j

[keykeeper]

All good points and well said, Racer. I think a lot of us were wanting to say that, just aren't as eloquent as you are.

-aaron c.

[racer3j]

Did not want you fellers to think I was storyin' ya. I notice other than edged weapons/tools in last photos. not bad wood to go with good steel.mike

[Frosty]

That's pretty much what I'm talking about. As it stands you don't know enough, to know what you need to know.

Both of these forges are fine pieces of equipment and will do most anything you want. But here's the big BUT you have to know how to get them to do it.

At your present level of expertise almost anything you get now will make problems for you as you'll find out down the road you actually wanted to do something else.

For example, every male student I've taken on has wanted to make blades, swords for the younger ones and knives for the older ones. As far as I know only one has attempted one, a sword but stock removal not forged. I don't think he ever heat treated it as he couldn't hold a consistent bevel. Not enough experience.

My only student to make a blade is a young woman who only wanted to learn basic forging. When it came to learning to forge and heat treat tool steel she'd focused so completely I told her she could make anything she wanted.

She forged, ground, heat treated and dressed a very nice sheath knife with a 4 1/4" blade 7 3/8" overall. Myrtle wood handle and brass furniture. It was a clean elegant design, of utilitarian size and fitted her hand just right.

The reason Lindsay was as successful as she was, even with the focus she brought to the game is because I was there every step of the way. Right up to and including the point the tang snapped in the quench. That was our last day together as her next school was in Virginia and her time here was up.

She was able to salvage it by finding a welding instructor who knew what he was about and welded the tang back on.

My point being, focus on learning to forge, successfully making blades is quite a ways down the road. Find yourself a moderate sized utilitarian forge, what it burns is far less important than just heating steel to beat is. I can't tell you, nobody can, whether one of these fine forges will do the job for you. We don't know what you want to do beyond "making knives."

There are guys out there making prize winning knives with no more forge than a hollowed out firebrick and a BernzOmatic torch. One fellow I haven't heard from in a couple years lived in a retirement condo in Florida. He did all his forging on a 12" piece of RR rail on the balcony of his 4th floor condo with a one brick forge. Then he scraped, filed, sand papered and hand polished his blades. As I recall the only power tool he used was a hand drill. He put his entire kit together for something like $15.

The tools and equipment can't do the work for you. Without guidance they're just inanimate lumps of highly refined dirt. The only tool that counts is your brain; knowledge and practice are the only worthy tricks to the craft.

There are a large group of people here more than willing to help you along the path but if you insist on running before you can crawl you're more likely to trip over and over than succeed.

Frosty

[KenC]

If 'cheap' is the most desireable factor in a forge then why not build your own. I have seen several homebrew forges from brake drums to plan earth pits (Japanese style). For blade forgeing I suggest a basic morter, ash, and sand (fireclay if you have it) mixture. Place a side tuyre or bottom tuyre (just drill about 3-4 1/4 inch holes in a 1-2 inch steel pipe raised about 4-6 inches from the bottom of a wash tub (or whatever, I used an old gas BBQ grill) and bury it at the bottom of a small oblong wash pail). Extend the pipe about 1 foot outside the firebox and use an old hairdryer or paint peeler heat gun to supply the air. Works great with charcoal or coal. Make sure that if you plan to use coke that the bottom and sides are at least 6 inches thick. Allow to cure (be sure to spray lightly with water at lest twice daily) for a couple of days. Fire normally and have fun. This information is readily available on the internet. This is a cheap forge (<$100) that should last a few years until you are ready for a more 'professional' setup.

Have fun