To ribbon or not to ribbon

[EDL]

Having a very basic understanding of a ribbon burner (naturally aspirated or forced induction), are they worth the effort for a knife making forge?

I'm aware a forge will require maintenance and possibly a rebuild at some point, particularly when using the borax flux common with damascus as it's nasty to the forge internals.  I'd just like to have a better understanding as to the pros and cons to determine if it's worth the time and effort, or to stick with a simpler burner design, either for the above reason or others I'm not aware of.

I'd like my first build to be at least decent.  I don't mind trying things and then refining as I learn, but that depends a great deal on what the item is.  In this case, I don't want to slap something together (like one of those coffee can contraptions or a some heavy firebricks held together with angle iron) to realize a few weeks later I'm wasting my gas just getting the thing to temp (if it even will get to temp) and have to build another one. 

[Mikey98118]

8 hours ago, EDL said:

Having a very basic understanding of a ribbon burner (naturally aspirated or forced induction), are they worth the effort for a knife making forge?

It depends on what you mean by the term. I have seen three burner forges described as "knife maker' forges for sale. To me, a knife maker forge is a little small at one gallon size (large coffee can), and plenty roomy at two gallon size (used Freon or helium cylinder) roomy; at such small sizes, ribbon burners get a little tricky to pull off successfully. on the other hand they seem made for five gallon forges (used propane cylinder)

[EDL]

Understood.  I went on the assumption that a "knife making" forge would be toward the smaller side considering general dimensions of knives (length and width).  Of course, that still leaves room for interpretation depending on how big the knives are to be made, or other things but...I believe you've answered the question well enough.  Ribbon burners become tricky in smaller forge sizes.  At this juncture, I'll file that under the category of "don't try it on my first forge."

[Frosty]

Good thinking. If you're like most of us you'll end up with a couple gas forges. A good friend has two main forges: his main blade forge is 2 IFBs and a 1/2" T burner that's WAY too much burner. His large shop forge is powered by a couple 1/2" burners the chambers are roughly 4.5" sq x 9" long. His portables are roughly 200 cui and more general use forges. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[D.Rotblatt]

Do you want to forge, or like playing around with making forges?  Im a knife maker.  For a start, to get going quickly, I would go with something like Frosty is suggesting (listen the that man...he speaks with the wisdom of the north).  

The difference between the two (I have both) is that the ribbon burner makes the whole interior pretty evenly hot, while the tube burner creates a hot spot below it.  Being able to heat the whole blade evenly is really good for heat treating.  Having a hot spot is nice for localizing the heat when forging, but it's harder to HT as long a blade.  A single burner coming in from the side of a 'D' shaped forge parallel to the ground so the flame will swirl will distribute the hot spot wider and is a good compromise.  A ribbon burner is also a harder build.  Frosty's 'T' is an easy build.

I would say to start, there is no need for a ribbon burner at this point, and there are advantages to a spot heat that you get from a single tube burner.  The single burner forge I made for portable demos turned out to be my regular daily forge for years.  It was/is (it's been modified for a ribbon burner since) about 250 cu inches, made from a small helium tank, and had a single 3/4" Reil burner on it.  It easily welded.  I think the helium tank is the 8.9 cu ft tank, and the bottom internal dimensions where one IFB brick...4.5 x 9"?, and it had a single 1" layer of ceramic fiber.  For knives, in a forge this size you can forge and HT a blade ~10" long.  I used this forge to make swords, but had to HT in a different forge.

Upshot is for starting out, make it small, simple and quick.  After you use it awhile you will know what you need for the next one.  The second one is easier, because you have not only the knowledge, but a lot of the parts still around.  And in the meantime..you're making knives!

DanR

 

[EDL]

Don't quote me on this, I think I read somewhere here that someone makes their forge shells from sheet metal and just rivet it together.  That, combined with yours and Frosty's input, what do you think of using one of those large rural mailboxes as a shell? it's D shaped.  Good, bad?

I get the point, though.  Build something simple and workable and learn to work with it, learn the likes and dislikes and then build another to address those short comings as experience grows.  Sometimes I get eat up with just wanting to do some things right the first time, or end up with the best possible product.

Speaking of the ceramic fiber, almost everyone says 2" laid up in 1" layers, here you describe using just 1", but no one, that I've seen has recommended 3" (or more)..is that simply that 1-2 inches plenty and 3 is just eating up workspace for no reason?

[D.Rotblatt]

22 hours ago, EDL said:

Sometimes I get eat up with just wanting to do some things right the first time, or end up with the best possible product.

I here you there. I’m often the same way, but here’s a pic of my first furnace just before it was retired.  Built from a can with screw top labeled “Freon”. i think it took me 4 hours to build .  We didn’t worry about any stinkin’ silicosis back then!

 

As for number of layers, 1” is ok, but you get some heat loss, a lot of my forges had that much and easily welded. Temperature is more about internal size vs burner output (ie make the forge smaller). 2” layer will save money in the long run. The forge is more efficient and gets a little hotter for the same gas.  3” is diminishing returns for the work and $$.  Sometimes used to fill space in an over large forge body. Many opinions on this one. 

A mailbox would work fine. Rivets, screws, welded. Just not soft soldered. I would say anything that will withstand 4-500F, and most of it will never get near that hot. 

Figure what you want the internal size to be, modify the mailbox in needed. 
 

DanR

[Frosty]

NOT if it's a galvanized mailbox! Burning zinc can be toxic, especially if you're sensitive to it. While it's POSSIBLE to shield the shell from high temps it's not a trivial thing and needs to be done right. Sheet as thin as a mail box will heat above zinc's combustion temp very quickly so I recommend NOT using one at all.

It's easier and safer to just fill the bottom of a cylinder to make a flat floor.

Frosty The Lucky.

[EDL]

Good catch, Frosty.  Actually, the one I had in mind is not galvanized, but painted.  Anyway, it was just an idea. 

[671jungle]

D forge with bottom mounted tube burners works well for me. nice even heat and longer flame hang time in the forge. I am currently gathering material for the next larger build.

two 3/4" Mikey's bottom mounted in a stainless steel pan topped with a split 5 gallon helium tank. the top can be interchangeable to use only one burner if needed or different shape depending on project.  This pic is from a previous build. 

 

[Frosty]

I've seen enough nose plow or grader destroyed mail boxes to suspect they're painted galvanized steel, aluminum or plastic. 

It really helped learn new guys to watch their speed plowing if THEY had to go replace the mail boxes they take out. Yeah, I'm pretty sure we all had to learn the hard way and we rarely sent guys out to do shoulder work alone. The more eyes on traffic the safer.

Frosty The Lucky.

[EDL]

Plow drivers having to replace mailboxes?  What planet do they do that on?  Around here they paint hash marks on the side of the truck for everyone they can take out. 

[Frosty]

Alaska DOT highways maint. doesn't think public safety nor damage to private property is a joke. The state and municipalities are legally responsible for legally placed property damaged by operations, mail boxes fall under penalty of Federal law. Operators who either aren't skilled enough, or disregard operational directives get to fix the damage they cause. Correcting your own mistakes is just part of the learning process.

However an operator who was so blatantly disrespectful of: the law, property and operational standards as to paint the score on their truck wouldn't be an operator. That sort of behavior could even lose you your CDL and your job. Think someone reading your next resume wants to hire someone who got fired from a public service job?

Guys on the crews joke, especially about operators who tend to take out things like mailboxes and talk about painting the score on their rigs. Doesn't happen, even in remote camps. We got nick names though and sometimes they turned into radio handles. Heck, legally you can't modify ANY vehicle, not even a magnetic sticker UNLESS it's in the interests of safety and temporary. For example spraying international orange marking paint on a belly blade or wing blade that lost it's reflectors or strobe and that would be corrected at end of shift IF there wasn't time to just take it to the shop then. Working foremen and leads carried fluorescent paint to mark hazards but not operators in general. 

Go ahead though, road maint. guys get used to being mocked and scorned by people who scream and cry if the job doesn't get done but cry even louder if they get inconvenienced by the doing. Seeing as I'm no longer an employee I can respond without being punished. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[EDL]

Of course, I wasn't being serious about the hash marks, but I have had several mailboxes taken out by the plows and no recompense by the township or the county (they refuse).  xxxx, they wouldn't even fix or replace the drain pipe that runs under the end of my driveway (even though it's on THEIR easement), they said that's on me to pay for and/or do myself (but they were all about telling me all sorts of specs it has to meet concerning slope angles, diameter and type of pipe, etc).  I asked them what the heck do I pay my township and county tax for if they aren't responsible for anything?  They run a plow truck down the road a few times in winter and mow the ditch banks once per summer.

 

Oh, and as far as the drain pipe, they wanted 15" smooth bore, had to be 2 degree slope over a 12 foot or longer run.  Heh, this is for a ditch that is literally 6 or 7 inches deep, if that, and about as wide.  I live in a rural area on acreage, this is the tiniest drainage ditch I think I've ever seen.   15" my butt, that would set the bottom of the pipe almost a foot below the bottom of the ditch.  Nice water collector for summer mosquitoes.  I redid the drain using the front end loader on my tractor and I put in 10" pipe.  Sure is better than the 4" mish mash of plastic and rusted out metal pipe that I replaced!

[Frosty]

Sorry, Guess it's still a button that didn't go away after retiring. 

Who are you calling, the local maintenance shop? Try calling the director's office. It's very unlikely you'll get to talk to the director and actually don't really want to. You want to talk to the real power in office, his receptionist, maybe have the local USPS Corporate Headquarters and have one of their people have a chat with local director of maintenance. 

Remember you're dealing with a bureaucracy and you live in the sticks. I'll bet folks who complain tend to get their roads taken care of eventually if ever. Petty empires are common everywhere but the little person with a little power tends to be easily shaken. Remember a bolus tolls downhill so after giving him/er a chance to do their job properly, take it higher but taking it by stages is frustrating so taking it to the governor or equivalent level so by time it gets to the station foreman it's got a full head of REALLY stinky steam on it.

The official is probably too busy, hopefully actually is but his receptionist can build a fire under anybody and it'll be hot and fast.

Unfortunate for a number of folks it's just impossible to do a competent job of plowing and not knock mail boxes over, sometimes there just isn't enough room for both. However there are mail boxes that don't care if you hit them with a wave of cold wet heavy snow at 20 mph. and do NOT build them on Steel posts and concrete you do't want to be paying a hospital bill because someone hit it. 

There are two basic types, the "swingers" and "pivoters." A Swinger is on a post that's well back from the shoulder, 6' or more and there's a nice sturdy Jib arm out to the correct distance to mound a mail box. Then you hang your mailbox from a couple free swinging arms. 3/8" round is about as heavy as you can safely go and probably not get sued if someone drives into it. When snow blasts into your box it just swings up and out of the way to return relatively unscathed.

In some folk used pipe for the jib arm so the hanging members could attach to a ring and let the box loop the loop if it gets hit hard enough. It's not as attractive but it's more robust.

The other mount looks more typical but the post is pipe with the bottom sawn at an angle. A smaller post buried in position, again well back is the actual support member. The pipe with the angled end telescopes over it. A piece of the larger pipe cut at a matching angle is welded to the smaller post with the angled end above ground level, maybe high enough crud doesn't foul it. The horizontal jib arm is welded aligned with The post where it settles slips over the smaller pipe. When snow or a kid with a baseball bat hits your box it swings out of the way in a horizontal circle but the angles make the post lift up as it whirls out of line and gravity will swing it back. A small dab of dry lube helps, grease tends to hold grit though so maybe not so good.

Yeah, I hear you about driveway culverts. The response you got is typical mid level management gvt. speak for I have a set of rules and don't have to think or heavens forbid take any responsibility for a mistake. <gasp> Just do it is the right answer if you don't live on a heavily traveled road. It's easier to get forgiven than permission is a good rule of thumb so long as you don't leave yourself open to a law suit if some moron injures him/er self on it. 

A perfect example here is the intuitive solution to the knocked down mail box problem that gets you sued successfully is the super strong can't knock it down post. You see them, usually well casing or masonry posts with a steel cage or masonry enclosure. Sure it solves snow and kids with bat a drive byes, unfortunately when that high school boy gets his arm broken when the bat shatters in his hand guess who has to pay for the: ambulance, hospital, doctors, therapy and maybe punitive charges? Then there's the knothead speeding along writing a text that hits the super mail box post. See above but multiply it by worse injuries and several people.

Short version is never put anything a person can hurt them self on in the right of way. It's okay if it's there naturally but NOT okay if you put it there. 

Yeah, I used to deal with this crap for a living.  

Frosty The Lucky.

[EDL]

Oh, I took the pipe issue to the township chairman (or whatever his official title is these days) and also to my county commissioner.  Same answer, same foot dragging, same refusal to do anything other than to dictate the requirements.  So, I replaced it like I said.  No one has said a word.  Heck, what I replaced was obviously installed by the previous owners and patched by them at some point as well (my house was built in 1900, no idea when the ditch was created).  There was about 10 feet of what appeared to be 6" metal pipe that was rusted and falling apart, it was also heaved out of the ground and created a sizable hump at the end of the driveway.  Somewhere along the line, they stuffed 4" plastic flexible pipe into it as a fix.  Never got any kind of notice or warning that it had to be repaired, so when i got the run around about it, I plopped the 10" corrugated plastic pipe (smooth wall interior) in its place.  Has been there going on 5 or 6 years now with no issues...except for the side of the roadbed collapsing in on the exit side, but that was happening even before I fixed the pipe.  The ditch, back when it was created, was dug too deep and steeper down that side of the road so it creates a steep incline up to the road.  Rain just washes over the side of the road and is eroding away the road bed underneath.  Slowly but surely, the asphalt (well, the chips and oil, they are too cheap to actually pave the road) is breaking off and falling in the ditch.  We've already had a couple cars drive off into it in the winter and had to get hauled out.  There's no gutter or specific drain routers on the road edge, it just drops right off into the ditch. 

As for the mailbox, I've taken to just using the super cheapy one from the big box store.  The post is just set in dirt, no concrete, and as deep as I can get it (the ground around here is heavy clay with a hard pan about 1.5 feet down that's a mother to get through).  The box mounts via a couple of thin sheet metal straps underneath with a half circle on each side and is suppose to clamp to the post with two screws.  I tighten it just enough so the winds won't blow it off, but when the plow blasts it, it just knocks it off the post with little to no damage.  Since doing that, I've found it laying on the side of the road only once.  Just slide it back onto the post and done deal.  Fortunately, haven't had any episodes of anyone doing drivebys with a bat yet.

I'm aware of the issue with the "Fort Knox" mailboxes.  My dad relayed a story about one of the neighbors got in trouble for it when some kid went through the neighborhood bashing down boxes using his body like a football lineman.  Apparently, he was running down the street with his hands in front of him and just plowing over the boxes, that is, until he hit the neighbors.  Apparently, he broke both his wrists and did some pretty hefty damage to the family jewels.  Not sure exactly how much trouble he got in, but it cost him a hefty chunk of change according to my dad.

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

Sounds like Evolution in Action. Or as a friend says "Being Stupid Should Hurt!"

We have a neighborhood mailbox at the end of our street put up by the Post Office. Everyone has a key to their box and there are a set of larger ones that the postperson can use for small parcels and leave the key to that one in your mailbox.  I like the everything is locked up aspect; now if they would just get the right letters in the right boxes...

[JHCC]

One of my old neighbors in Vermont had the "swinger" variety with the mailbox suspended from chains. The jib arm was quite high in air (about the same as the standard 16' for highway overpasses, just in case an 18-wheeler went off the road) and had an additional box mounted on its end, prominently labeled "AIR MAIL".