Err... this old German anvil?

[pleb]

Hello, I'm kinda new here, haven't really posted anything ever since i joined, just lurking the forums for months,soaking up all the knowledge that's been spread over the years on these forums
Anyway, i don't want to drag on for too long, i recently bought an old German anvil and it's got a few things i can't really wrap my head around, so i figured i'd post here in hopes of getting some advice.

So yeah uh keeping it short.. eh

It's somewhere between 330 - 440 lbs (150-200kg) and 3 feet long (90 cm). Now, what bothers me is that it is unmarked, i haven't found any markings on it, the surface is kinda "rough", and the hardy hole is about 3 inches deep, the rest of it is WELDED!





Okay so,
-Who would be the manufacturer of this anvil, i did some research and i just.. uhh.. couldn't figure out, many manufacturers made this style of anvil, ii'm dying to know, there's something about knowing who made it, where it's been, i love the history of tools and items.

- Should i weld it? I know it all comes down to "what do i want, and what do i need", i just want to hear other opinions. Apparently everybody (elsewhere, not here) has different opinions on welding anvil surfaces. Some say use 7018, 7010 rods, some say build up rods are great but they are a pain and not to waste time using them, some say dont bother preheating, and then there's some guy's comment on youtube i saw, saying how he was a weld(ing) inspector for 40 years and how welding anvils leaves a destroyed/melted surface under the weld therefore  anvils shouldn't be welded at all... like WHAT?!

Now, i did read about the Gunther / Schuler method, it really seems like the way to go, BUT, since i live in a 3rd world country, and many things are not available, if i can't buy stoody / build up rods, what rod should i use? (if i decide to weld it of course)

- Now how about some nasty welded hardy hole, i wonder why was it welded in the first place, should i try to cut through it or better yet, how should i do it?

Good thing i kept it short ay? Sorry, i just had to express myself!

Cheers
 

[Kozzy]

So to clarify..someone welded the bottom of the hardy hole closed?  Though not a huge issue, crud would probably collect in the hole and that'd be tough to clean out on a heavy anvil.  Assuming I'm understanding this correctly, use a wire to see how thick the weld plug is and if it's not too thick, drill it out as much as you can.  With a miserable work day, you could then file it out to a more appropriate shape if needed (or at least clean up from the drilling)

Unless the surface is soft as butter, there seems no reason I can see to resurface the anvil at all.  If it is soft as butter, probably still no reason until you can set up for the full proper method and have absolutely nothing else to do (or buy with the money it'll cost you).  

Use the darned thing and don't worry about trying to turn it into a perfect anvil.  As you find stuff that truly is a big problem, you can tweak it one issue at a time toward where you want it.  

 

[ThomasPowers]

If you don't preheat/slow cool you can get HAZ---Heat Affected Zone---cracking.  If you think of it a big body of metal is a type of quench as it will take heat out of the part heated up past the critical temp by the welding process. In fact of the 3 methods of heat transfer:  Conduction, Convection and Radiation; Conduction is the fastest method!  As you are not going to reheat treat the anvil after welding you want to use a rod that leaves a tough enough face. (Yes it is possible to reheat treat an anvil face; but that is a lot more trouble to do right!  Like just dropping it in a pond or river doesn't work!).

So clean out the hardy hole, looks like something got stuck in it and use it for a while and see if it's doing what you need it to, then decide if you want to modify it, and DON'T GRIND OR MILL ON THE FACE!

[Marc1]

As far as the make of your anvil, try to wire brush the sides and then rub a bit of chalk on the surface. That may reveal name.

It is a southern german style complete with upsetting block. one of the best shapes of anvil in my opinion. Piti no side shelf. 

Drilling out or chiselling out the crud in the hardy is a good idea.

Welding the surface not as good an idea.

Use it as it is, the surface will start becoming smoother the more you use it. After all what is the use of a perfectly flat anvil? Or sharp edges? or needle sharp horn? 

Take some time to wire brush it clean, oil it and build a nice steel tripod for a stand. That is time well spent

Take a picture of the sides once you clean and rub chalk in them. I am interested in the fact that the transition between horn and body is not smooth, they left a bit of a step on the edges. 

 

 

[Nobody Special]

I'm with Marc, wire brush with a non-knotted brush, although I prefer to rub the side with baby powder or corn starch instead of chalk.  It fills any depressions rather than highlighting them, but it seems to work better to me.

Are you sure that's a weld plug?  Fairly common for some India Delta 10 Tango  to drop scrap in and get it wedged, or break something off in one.  They can get wedged in good, and even rust in place.  Sometimes you can knock whatever it is back out.  Be judicious, no point breaking a heel.

[Frosty]

I can't see any damage to your anvil, why would you even think about welding it? Seriously it's in fine working condition. 

There's an excellent piece of advice given here by our host. Use it for a year then decide if it needs work. You don't have the experience to know a good anvil from a pretty one, pretty doesn't move steel. Pretty looks good on a shelf.

Frosty The Lucky.

[tanglediver]

I'ld run a torch up in that hardie hole just to see what smokes, just preheat flames, no oxygen jet.

[jlpservicesinc]

just to clarify for future anvil lookers.  this is a northern German type. A southern german type is smooth face to horn, no shoulder. 

Tanglediver.  I would not recommend running a torch up the hole as I have seen many that are not familiur with what you speak of and destroy the hardie hole with this type of activity. 

I do like you added in no O2 but people have selective memory. 

Interesting thread just found. 

 

I'd buy that anvil in a heart beat and put it to good use. 

[Frosty]

Ditto Jennifer on the no torch to the hardy hole. If you want to see if it's plugged with organics, heat a smallish, 1/4" - 1/2" max, piece of steel rod and probe the plug. 

And yeah, unless there were a problem I don't see in the pics, or the asking price were too high, I'd buy that anvil and let Deb yell at me, maybe sell my Trenton. It's a really nice shop size. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I'm also not recommending a torch on that plug in the hardy hole. I would start with a cape chisel from the bottom, from the picture it doesn't look welded in.

[pleb]

On 10/25/2019 at 5:01 PM, Kozzy said:

So to clarify..someone welded the bottom of the hardy hole closed? 

Yeah, it's definitely welded, hardy hole is only about 3 inches deep, the bottom is rounded, and there's probably about another 3 inches of weld to the bottom of the hardy hole, someone probably didn't care to properly weld the underside, that's why it looks so wonky, no idea why would it be welded in the first place.  I'll most likely drill it, chisel it like Irondragon F&C and Marc said,and file it, it's the best solution to the problem i guess. Thanks!

Oh and i don't have a torch, i wouldn't use it anyway, really, a bit risky i think @tanglediver
 

On 10/25/2019 at 5:10 PM, ThomasPowers said:

If you don't preheat/slow cool you can get HAZ---Heat Affected Zone---cracking.  

Makes sense!  And there's no way i'm gonna be grinding nor milling anything on the face, damaging it wouldn't be any easier.
 

On 10/25/2019 at 8:05 PM, Marc1 said:

As far as the make of your anvil, try to wire brush the sides and then rub a bit of chalk on the surface. That may reveal name.

 

On 10/25/2019 at 9:04 PM, Nobody Special said:

I'm with Marc, wire brush with a non-knotted brush

 Oh boy when i saw these two posts, i thought to myself, how didnt i think of that before?! I ran outside like a little kid, with my wire brush and baby powder and started brushing the side of the anvil (the one with the upsetting block), didn't reveal anything, so i said to myself "Now it's GOTTA be on the other side!", so i spent more time wire brushing and powdering it in hopes of revealing the brinks of hope, yet i didn't find anything.

Then i though, "AHA it must be on the side of the upsetting block, gotta brush that too!" - It wasn't.

Kinda disappointed, i thought to myself - might as well check the sides of the feet, there might be some numbers hidden or something, i checked one side, there wasn't anything, turned it around, nothing on the other side. At that point i said screw it, it's unmarked! BUT, as i looked up under the horn, I thought i saw some letters. Yeah RIGHT, why would anything be under the horn! I got excited, brushed it and it revealed something important yet meaningless to me because i had NO idea what it meant.  It was just two letters. "UF".



Now it gets interesting here, well, maybe, my mother decided to check out why i was brushing an anvil for an hour, just as i was telling her i'm trying to find a mark but there's absolutely nothing else but that "UF" under the horn, she saw some lines on the side of the anvil that she thought were too square and geometrical to be a chisel mark, at first i had some doubt, like no way. I decided to spend some time brushing that particular spot on the anvil,  impatiently waiting for it to reveal it's secrets! We spent a good hour trying to figure out what it was, because the mark is sooo shallow and very hard to "read". We both agreed it looked something like an eagle, with wings.. maybe? It's like watching clouds, everybody sees something different. Let me know what you guys think about it



 

 

On 10/26/2019 at 2:13 AM, Frosty said:

I can't see any damage to your anvil, why would you even think about welding it? Seriously it's in fine working condition. 

You are right. Eventually it's gonna need some repair, i thought i might as well do it now. But it can wait a few years.. or decades
Cheers
 

On 10/26/2019 at 9:16 AM, jlpservicesinc said:

just to clarify for future anvil lookers.  this is a northern German type. A southern german type is smooth face to horn, no shoulder. 

Never knew the difference, thanks for the info!
Oh and i also bought it in a heart beat, especially because i love buying old tools. Guy was asking 380 euros, i offered 300 and the guy took the bait, wasn't expecting it, really. Too bad the seller didn't care about the history, where it was or anything. He said he bought it from some guy, the anvil was used in a blacksmith shop, apparently the old blacksmith died and family decided to sell all the "old iron", good thing it didn't end up at a junk yard. That's just the way things work around here. My guess is the seller also wanted to get rid of it asap, because nobody needs an anvil around here, there's a very few blacksmiths here, and the guy probably paid for something he could not get rid of, so he accepted any price. Good for me i guess, too bad i missed out on the story, but oh well.
 

[Frosty]

1 hour ago, Screenzies said:

You are right. Eventually it's gonna need some repair, i thought i might as well do it now. But it can wait a few years.. or decades
Cheers

Not unless you do some serious damage to it! The dishing across the face is where it's been worked for decades and is the main direction you forge on an anvil. A depression in the face also makes straightening work easier, it allows the work to be bent beyond straight so the elastic rebound (spring) is accounted for. Lots of FLAT face is more myth than desirable. Oh know there are different opinions and some folk can't seem to work on anything but a flat anvil. Give yourself some time to develop the skills before you decide to risk that beautiful old lady's utility.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

those wear grooves are pretty neat.  

Few people realize that scale is very abrasive.  Anvils that where used for many years (even cast or forged steel which won't compress like wrought iron steel faced) will have abrasive wear. 

For some reason and not sure why. But all of the early German made anvils that I have looked at have about 1" or greater steel faces on the wrought iron steeled anvils.  Here in the USA Or even in Britain the anvil faces were thinner and in Germany the hard steel face also covered from Tail to tip of horn. . 

Just kind of neat. 

 

[Les L]

Screenzies, that “weld” in the hardy is not a very good weld, I would drill through the center, as close to the outer diameter of the hardy as possible, and then chisel, as recommended before, or drive a properly sized square punch/ drift, with a flat base and sharp edges, through to knock out the rest of the weld. I am basing this on what I can see in the picture and from what I can see as to the quality of the weld. As far as the face, I wish my anvil had as good of face and edges as that one, and I’m not considering touching it 

[Marc1]

7 hours ago, Screenzies said:

just to clarify for future anvil lookers.  this is a northern German type. A southern german type is smooth face to horn, no shoulder. 

Yeeea ... but ... that one is an in between. ( probably from Cologne  ) The shoulders are way too small, and the top has a wide continuation onto the horn. If you grind the two little corners off, you have a souther pattern. No not suggesting to do that ... A northern pattern has a perfectly conical horn that is placed on a flat face on the side of the body. 

Or so i think anyway

 

[tanglediver]

I never said anybody else should torch their hardy. I said, "I would". Screenzies has already determined that the hole is plug welded, a few seconds of preheat flame would verify "to me" that it is metal, and not some cob webs. I am, however, a bit of a pyro, and torch class was among my favorites in school. 

 

Side note; on my lab rat, I accidentally welded my pritchel hole shut, because copper tube is just not heat resistant enough. Hard face rod is a real pain to try to drill through.

[wicon]

Really funny anvil: Not really northern (but mostly) , not really southern plus the hardy hole is on the wrong side (like italian).

[Marc1]

May be from Monaco?

[pleb]

I'm a bit late to respond, but thanks for all the help and precious information.

As we haven't figured out who the manufacturer would be, i thought i might as well contact Refflinghaus and see what they think about it,  because we all love seeing old anvils, don't we?
I wasn't expecting them to reply back, so I was surprised when Jörg Refflinghaus replied to me. 

He said he doesn't know what the "UF" under the horn means,  and how he's never seen something like that before, therefore he'd ask his father for opinion. In the second mail, they asked me to check if there were any square holes in anvil body and under the anvil, which would indicate that the anvil is forged, but as my anvil doesn't have any holes in it, the conclusion was that the anvil is not forged, but rather a cast anvil.

In the second mail i sent, i asked if he could make a guess on how old the anvil could be and who could be the possible manufacturer. I shouldn't have asked this, because it confused me even more.

They couldn't really figure out what was the marking on the anvil (the one on the face, something that looks like the head of an eagle),  and this is the follow up:

Quote

I can not see the eagle.

I never have seen this before.

If there is no square hole in the body the anvil is a cast anvil.

It can be produced in "Belgium" or "France", the form of the foot.

But how old, we started to produce anvils from cast-steel in 1975 !

Sorry, I can not give you better information.

Greetings

Jörg

 

Just thought i'd make an update, so it doesn't look like i disappeared and left this "story" unfinished.
Maybe i should contact Richard Postman too and see if i get a response lol