Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Lets wait to see if Frosty or Mikey weighs in on this, they are the guru's on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 I only mentioned the off center mig tip because that barely being out of alignment causes problems. I was thinking the 45 degree elbow would do the same. I didn't mean to imply that was seen on your burner. I was asking how it performed because I didn't know if the bend would cause the same problems with the fuel air mixture as a misaligned mig tip. I can't open the PDF for the t burner instructions and I haven't looked at them in several months and don't remember how they were mounted. Most burners I have seen are mounted a few degrees off of center entering at a tangent. Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Just a little bit more tweaking and you could have a hotter forge if you want it. The 45 and extra nipple will add some resistance to the flow path but it will not change performance as drastically as an out of alignment mig tip. When a mig tip is out of axial alignment with the mix tube, even a little, it can reduce the air induction dramatically. The tip looks to be fairly out of alignment in this image. If you could get a picture of the flame inside the forge when the forge is first fired up before the walls are glowing, this would give us much more information to go on. If the burner were mine and the tip is actually out of alignment, I would get a new tee and try again. If you have access to a drill press, Frosty's advice in the pdf about using a floor flange to fasten the fitting to the drill press will help with this greatly. Measure carefully and center punch. After drilling, use the drill press to tap the hole. This will keep the tap in alignment. If you do this and you want to take the 45 out, do so before you tune the burner. You would gain some performance by removing it. Either way, have it setup the way you want it before you tune it. On the forge side of things, the blanket looks uncoated. As previously stated, this blanket can create a hazard if left uncoated. If you are not ham handed, you can get away with a thinner coating. I have used plistix which I got from Wayne Coe. In the beginning, I was pretty clumsy with hot pieces so I took the others advice and armored the blanket with a 3/8" layer of kast o lite 30. I like not worrying about poking the wall into the blanket so I still armor with kast o lite and then coat that in plistix. The full size brick that is in the forge looks to be the dense variety. The light bricks are in the 8 ounce range and the heavy ones are 7 pounds IIRC. If it is a heavy one, I would look for something else. This could be another significant area of improvement in forge temperatures. I used to use 3/8" high alumina kiln shelf in mine but now I just use the kast o lite. Don't just remove it and let the flame blast the raw blanket though, it will create the hazard and destroy the blanket. If you plan on forge welding with flux, your floor has to put up with flux as well. If you remove the 45 fitting, it would put the burner more over the top of the forge. This might draw in spent gas coming out of the forge. If you were to orient the tee openings perpendicular to the forge openings, it might help. Hopefully someone else has more experience with that.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 On the plus side, as near as I can tell from the photo, you seem to have placed the MIG contact tip correctly. On the minus side, that looks like a regular "T" fitting, instead of a reducing "T". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RToons Posted October 24, 2019 Author Share Posted October 24, 2019 Another FrankenBurner: The mig tip seems aligned to the center when I look at it when firing. Given what you indicated about sucking spent gases I think for now I will leave as is. I was also considering adding a 1/2 inch setup so I would end up with 2 burners but that is only a thought given I purchased that also? As for the fiber blanket I did spray it good with SIMWOOL RIGIDIZER last year when I started this process. Yesterday I sprayed it again on both sides and edges. I am letting it dry for a couple of days. The fire brick was purchased from a local stone company that builds fireplaces, porches, etc… and weighs more the 8oz but well less then 7lbs. I do not have a scale to weigh it but it 1.5"thick. In a couple of days I will light forge and post a video of it operating. I did add sheet metal inside & out and added bolts to make a sturdy platform for the piping. I appreciate the input and looking towards a fun stress releasing productive forging experience. Mike98118: Not sure what you are indicating by regular "T" fitting, instead of a reducing "T". What needs reduced? The sides are 1" and the piping is 3/4" which I guess could be considered reducing from 1" to 3/4". Given I am just starting I do not understand the finer details of a forge or its construction. All input is appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 It's hard to see things like jet alignment and such in snap shots so I've been reading along. The 45 elbow might effect how it burns, maybe not, can't tell if it's not burning. The only real issue I have with the burner nozzle alignment in the forge is that they NOT aim directly at a far wall where they make a zone of higher pressure and effect the burn negatively. This is a larger factor than causing a vortex in the chamber. Without seeing it burning I reserve opinion about how it does or should work. The change I would make is get that valve off the burner itself. It looks like a 1/4 turn shut off valve, excellent things, especially if something goes wrong and you have to kill the propane before a fire gets away from you. Unfortunately it's most likely to start just below where your valve is so you'd have to reach THROUGH the fire to shut it off quickly. So, maybe something else goes wrong and it's the hose that catches, the shut off valve is on the wrong side to do any good and you're back to hand cranking the tank valve. It seems to go pretty quickly until you have flames billowing near you. I put the shut off valve 1st thing after the regulator so I can kill the gas from as far from the fire as possible. Sure the residual gas in the hose and such will burn but it'l be gone in a couple seconds. When you take pics get one when you first light it up so we can get a clear look at the flame and another when the forge is at max temp. A couple from the side against a dark background will let us see the dragon's breath and get an idea of the fuel air ratio. And PLEASE don't put it in front of an open garage door and shoot from inside, back lighting pics makes for obscured details and poor color. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 19 hours ago, RToons said: Not sure what you are indicating by regular "T" fitting, instead of a reducing "T". What needs reduced? The sides are 1" and the piping is 3/4" which I guess could be considered reducing from 1" to 3/4". Given I am just starting I do not understand the finer details of a forge or its construction. The center opening that your burner's mixing tube is screwed into is supposed to be the next smaller size than the other two openings in a "T" burner, unless I'm mistaken. But you can always ask Frosty, since is is following along with your thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 8 hours ago, RToons said: and weighs more the 8oz but well less then 7lbs. I do not have a scale to weigh it but it 1.5"thick. I could not remember so I weighed a couple of bricks. The k26 brick weighs 2 lbs 6 oz(I was way off) and the dense brick weighs 7 lbs. These are full size bricks though, measuring 9" x 4.5" x 2.5". Based on the pictures, I thought you had a full brick in there. A common split size is 1.25" thick, maybe you have one of those. 8 hours ago, RToons said: As for the fiber blanket I did spray it good with SIMWOOL RIGIDIZER I am not sure here but I don't think the rigidizer alone is enough to protect against free fibers. 8 hours ago, RToons said: I will light forge and post a video Pictures are easier to get, take up less bandwidth and for me at least, are easier to read than video. The pictures that Frosty recommended would give us a lot of information to go on. 8 hours ago, RToons said: The sides are 1" and the piping is 3/4" This is the right one. If all three sides were 3/4" or 1" it would be the wrong one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RToons Posted October 25, 2019 Author Share Posted October 25, 2019 Now just lit forge. At 7psi is video VID_20191025_095905.mp4 VID_20191025_095905.mp4 VID_20191025_095905.mp4 Now just lit forge. At 7psi is video VID_20191025_095905.mp4 VID_20191025_095905.mp4 VID_20191025_095905.mp4 After burning for 5 minutes From side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 The most helpful pictures/videos are those which show the actual flame as it enters the forge chamber. The shape and color of the flame can tell us a lot about how well your burner is functioning. If that's good then there's no need to deal with anything else. If the flame doesn't look right then we may need shots of other portions of your setup to help you tweak it. And yes, you really should coat that fiber blanket with a castable refractory or at least a layer of Plistex or Matrikote. You need those fibers sealed away from the forge chamber. A single firing or a couple probably won't be much of a problem, but it's one of those things that doesn't go away and can sneak up on you before you realize your lungs have been damaged. Much better to eliminate the risk than to take chances. As the saying goes, "When you can't breathe nothing else matters." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 Irondragon Forge & Clay posted a thread on page 1 which goes into the danger of uncoated ceramic wool(kaowool). It is a good read. See all the broken down bits here. You don't want this. The smaller particles which go airborne and make it into your lungs are no good. I'm not a big safety guy but I want to do this for a while to come and I want my lungs, eyes and ears to still work at the end of it so I do what I can to protect them. I have hearing damage and a scarred eye from before I started wearing the ppe and I sure wish I had just worn it before the damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 You REALLY need to get that heavy fire brick out of your forge! Between that huge heat sink and the large openings It's not going to get very hot, mid orange maybe but not much hotter. Just the shape of the brick really screws up the flow of flame in the chamber, almost certainly channeling much heat directly out the doors! Replace it with something thinner like "Kiln Shelf" or build up a flat section with rigidized ceramic blanked and plaster it all with hard refractory. At least wash the blanket with Plistex or Matrikote, minimum. Better a 3/8" + coating of a water setting high alumina castable refractory, it'll armor the fibers from bangs, gouges and such. You can order small quantities from Glenn in the IFI store. THEN wash the flame face with Plistex or Matrikote for that forge version of frosting on the cake. Either of these products fire very hard, are rated for much higher temps and are chemically robust so even some of the dangerously aggressive fluxes won't erode your forge liner. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RToons Posted October 26, 2019 Author Share Posted October 26, 2019 Frosty: I plan to purchase the refractory cement to coat the simwool but have question will it Stick to the blanket twice coated with rigidizer? Left msg for Glenn asking that question. The other issue is the brick: thinking about cutting in half[half thickness or 1/3 maybe] and applying refractory cement? Just thick enough kinda like kiln shelf thin? And create door /flap on both ends covered with refractory cement with grill kind vents? What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 It shouldn't matter how many coats of rigidizer is on the blanket but it sure wouldn't hurt to mix up a table spoon and apply it to a small area near the opening to test it out. Let it dry, take a butane torch to it or a little charcoal and blow down through it to heat the wash to mid orange temp, let it cool and see if it sticks to the blanket. You can buy split fire brick for much less than the price of a blade that'll slice a hard fire brick. Do you have any blanket left over from the build? If so cut a piece say 3" wide by the length of the chamber and feather the long edges, thin them like a bevel, so the whole makes a flat floor. Rigidize it and plaster it in with whichever hard refractory or combination you choose. Plaster it heaver on the floor as it's going to take the most physical erosion. This will open up the interior of your forge and allow the flame to flow freely and heat more evenly, it won't channel flame out of the forge and lastly it is may times the insulation of any thickness of hard fire brick. As a FYI, 3,000f. hard fire brick has about the same insulation properties as an equal thickness of limestone. When you're buying fiberglass insulation it's insulation quality is expressed as "R value" approximately R-3 per inch thickness. Most places recommend R-20 in walls, yes? The R in R-value stands for "one foot of limestone" so you'd need 20' thick limestone walls to have the same insulation value as about 6" of fiberglass. This huge difference in insulation value is at work when we compare a hard fire brick and ceramic blanket refractory. The difference isn't as great but it can be the difference in performance between easy welding heat and barely reaching working heat. Don't get me wrong, you can make split fire brick work, lots of commercial forge makers use them but you end up spending many times as much in fuel over a surprisingly short time. The payback for buying a little more blanket or a split Morgan K 26 IFB comes in hours, say 20 hours of forging AND it'll be a hotter forge. I know it sounds like I'm selling this stuff but I'm not affiliated in any way other than my forges. Mine are lined (starting from the shell moving inward) with two layers of rigidized 1" Kaowool refractory blanket, covered with 1/2" Kastolite-30 a 3,000f water setting high alumina castable HARD refractory, lastly kiln washed with a home made wash that isn't terribly effective. I'll buy the good stuff next time. Lastly don't confuse yourself by trying to understand this all nor trying to make a forge that'll last you for years. You can drive yourself nuts trying to understand stuff without actually just doing it. Propane forges burn the liners out of themselves, all the stuff I just described is a wear item so don't try and make something that's going to last longer than it's going to. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RToons Posted October 28, 2019 Author Share Posted October 28, 2019 Does anyone know how I can delete video, pictures, discussion I created? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 Sorry, once posted it's here to stay unless the contents are deliberately obscene, racist, etc. I'm not admin but I've seen the answer to your question hundreds of times and it's always the same. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 Why would you want to do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RToons Posted October 28, 2019 Author Share Posted October 28, 2019 Irondragon: because there is a video I uploaded that is useless and other pictures are mostly duplicates. Mainly to keep things tight & useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RToons Posted November 11, 2019 Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 What a mess I did when applying refractory cement. It would not stick to fiber treated blanket and when I added a bit more h2o it slid to bottom. I let it set a bit & spreader it up sides but it would roll off fiber! Ended up with 1/4 coverage of the round forge. At least I have a thick floor to replace the HEAT SINK brick Frosty suggested I get rid of. Lol! With remainder of mix I made thin brick like parts and plan to place in forge up sides & cover with fresh refractory! May take another week to build up coverage & create keystone to hold it all up? Any thoughts? I think I should have formed small sections outside forge, placed in forge then covered & locked in place with a final coat of refractory. Expensive learning curve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 When I was coating the interior of my recent reline I just rotated the forge so the area I was working on was "down". Did not over add water so each section set up enough to rotate to the next one easily---I think I did it in thirds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RToons Posted November 11, 2019 Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 Yes Thomas you have it correct if I understand what you did. Today I mixed another small batch of refractory, Put in the pieces I formed a few days ago and applied the cement over the pieces I placed in the forge. I did spray the fiber blanket and previously formed pieces with a light spray of cold water. It stuck to the blanket and pieces because I pushed it up the sides a bit. Now my forge is a little over half done with refractory. When I do it again I will create a type of blister inside the forge, spray it with pam, seal both ends and pour the foundry around the blister so I end up with an inch or so of foundry cement around the propane input hole. All I can say is this was an expensive lesson! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RToons Posted December 24, 2019 Author Share Posted December 24, 2019 I purchased more of the Castable Refractory Cement and plan to build a new forge from an old large hand carry type tool box. I see my mistakes from the previous build and I have a question as to additive to refractory cement. I saw on TV a man building a forge and he added something to the mix. It was a white substance that looked like the PUNICE the stuff added to soil? Did not make sense to me because it holds water? Is there anything I can add to the cement that is inexpensive to get more from the product without taking from the heat holding & structure? The cement is expensive[$48] & if I can buy an additive for a few bucks I would be happy and have xtra for another forge as needed? The forge I have now has kaowool and after Frosty noted the fibers and suggested refractory cement I made a real mess of it. The forge went from ~7lbs to around ~25lbs and I did a poor job of applying the cement. I know what to do now to get a nice constant thickness of cement[use a Blatter type insert to get thickness I want. Any help would be appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 If a material is labeled as "cement" or "mortar" it's not what we are recommending for the inner lining/flame face of a forge. Those materials are designed to hold pieces together at high heat. What you saw added was probably perlite. It is sometimes added to soil and it is inexpensive. The idea is to create voids (air pockets) in the refractory material to enhance its insulating properties. This can have some value. However, if you use a high alumina insulating castable refractory such as Kastolite 30, it already has material included in the mix for that purpose. I know it seems a little pricey up front, but a properly built forge will save you a fair amount of money in fuel as time goes by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RToons Posted December 24, 2019 Author Share Posted December 24, 2019 (edited) Buzzkill I did purchase Rutland Products castable refractory cement . I was not sure if including the product name would violate any policies but my intent is not to recommend a product just to make you aware of the type of refractory cement. It indicates can be used to create fire bricks or floor of firepit. Can handle temps up to 2,200 Degrees F. Given this would adding perlite to expand material be done without harm to heat resistance or structure? So far this refractory cement has worked great in my first messy forge without any breaking issues. I am just disappointed in the construction of forge and want a redo I can be proud of and add a second jet. I attempted to forge 4 pieces of high carbon steel together[cleaned up by grinding to shiny surface]. Given my forge only has 1 jet and it is NOT long enough to hold 8" materials I heated half the steel and hammered together without issue. When I put the second half in hammered it and darn, it failed to stick together. Is that due to not heating & hammering it all at once? I did tac weld together before any forging took place. Any thoughts... Edited December 24, 2019 by Mod30 Remove commercial link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 Links to commercial sites like Amazon are not allowed, you can edit the post and just put in the name which is OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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