RToons

HELP-Burner produces BLACK silt

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I have a military milk container I am using for my forge. I finally got it finished today and lit it up! I have 40lb propane tank connected to regulator connected to 6" black pipe with a .025 wire contact tip. The welding tip is screwed[tapped threads]  into a black cap inserted into a 1/2" black bell where the tip is inside the bell at the top.

I turned the regulator to 10psi and it appears to work good but producing black carbon soot? I was attempting to cook the  insulation to burn off fibers & prepare fire bricks before I started to utilize forge. 

Could issue be the milk jug has a nick about 6" and the bottom of jug is about 12" round. These are the only openings?  If you look at milk jugs that farmers used and military used to supply milk in field!  I should have taken pictures but dark now so if needed I can take pictures later and repost!

 

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Is there a coating of oil on any of the burner parts?

Pnut

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Pictures!  Especially of the burner in use.  Also type of burner, type of regulator, etc.  A proper burner running will not produce carbon.  However if burning very rich---like using a gas grill regulator instead of a high pressure regulator can cause that.

My guess is the burner is not constructed properly and/or the regulator is not correct.

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Attached pictures. The .025 wire tip is at the top of the 1/2 bell at narrow endWIN_20191019_10_47_43_Pro.jpg.45532b359a612ebcd717a2d593b1acbd.jpgWIN_20191019_10_47_57_Pro.jpg.da3f8ead8c4adc6880fca85e8261b67e.jpgWIN_20191019_11_01_08_Pro.jpg.8f0add98fc45e9ad91b1c056048f786f.jpg

WIN_20191019_10_44_50_Pro.jpg

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17 hours ago, RToons said:

cook the  insulation to burn off fibers

This is the first thing that comes to my mind. The fibers don't burn off but will become air borne and be a serious health hazard unless they have been ridgidized or coated with refractory. Might want to check on that.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/53239-ceramic-wool-insulation-safety-alert/

 

I can't comment about the burner as I have never seen one like that. Where did you get the design?

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Soot in the forge means it's burning extremely rich, not drawing enough combustion air. There are a number of proven burner designs posted here on Iforge. Pick ONE and just build it. Mixing and matching different designs usually causes more problems than improvements. Guys who have been building burners rarely mix features.

Ditto IF&C. Ceramic fiber blanket needs to be rigidized to prevent fibers breaking loose and becoming an airborne breathing hazard. Lining a propane forge is well covered in "Forges 101" section. 

Stick with us, we'll get you up and smithing shortly.

Frosty The Lucky.

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I got design from many months of this site, youtube, &  several friends online! I did purchase solution recommended on this site and the ceramic blanket is hard to touch about half way through, I sprayed it months ago. 

Frosty is correct when he indicates I got idea from many areas but mostly from this site! I will review as suggested and ensure enough air is getting in.

Thank You

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Took out 1/2 bell and it is working good. I now must find a better system to hold in place. For now I have thin metal which will melt! I cut hole for 1/2 bell & have all mounts designed for that. now that I removed bell I must rethink mount system/1WIN_20191019_14_19_30_Pro.jpg.6f493e844b9801a76b9bcb379c5bfde8.jpg

I think getting to much air due to flame red & not much blue. I saw someone cut the bottom of a soda can , oval a bit and use to control air flow.  At least I am on a good track now. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I did place fire break in rear to keep in heat.

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Ditto Mike. Once you've done SOME reading pick ONE design and follow it. As much as we try to keep things accurate there are a HUGE number of people posting things they think they know but don't. 

I can't render much of an opinion of your burner's current incarnation from this distance. From your text though I can deduce and opine that you don't know enough about burners and how they work too know how poorly your burner is actually operating. We discuss tuning and reading the flame in Burners 101 but try and pick ONE guy who knows what s/he's talking about.

Don't get sucked into the trap of looking for information that agrees with what you believe. This is normal human thinking, we all do it but it's an exercise in corner painting. 

A couple points about this latest build: 1, the strapping you have it tied to the forge are NOT going to melt unless they're plastic. The outside of your forge won't get that hot. Relax, your burner mount will do fine till you get an effective burner to mount. Okay? 

2, I can NOT see the air intake in the pic you just posted. I see a bunch of brass where so VERY LITTLE is actually required.

3, How long is the mixing tube? It looks WAY too long in the pic. 

Again, pick ONE design and follow it. Worry about making changes once you have something that works. If you don't understand something in a burner design or plans ask the person who made it. Asking the forum in general will get you heaped up with things from folk who want to be helpful but usually don't really have a clue.

Frosty The Lucky.

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The black pipe is 6"long with a cap at the end and the .025 mig tip treaded into it. From there it is held in place as you see by the picture! When you ask about mixing tube are you asking from the propane on/off knob to the forge? If so that is the 6"black pipe?

You are correct in indicating I need to learn more and I will  try to review burners 101 again. I have serious issues with reading and prefer pictures or videos and that is why I like youtube. There are 1001 thoughts on this issue and narrowing down to productive ones is a task.

I have been thinking about a forge for a couple of years. Reading/watching videos for the day I was functional again to start a build. About 8 months ago I finally got my stable mobility back and it comes and goes but it will NOT stop me or force me to give up. 

I am open to constructive input and direction to help understand and learn to construct a good functional forge. I will go back to burners 101 and refresh my knowledge. I will keep you updated to modifications and will work towards a finished system.

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10 minutes ago, RToons said:

why I like youtube.

The problem with youtube is, for one good video, there are twenty that are not only wrong but dangerous when it comes to forges and blacksmithing in general. All someone needs to claim themselves an expert is a smart phone and internet connection.

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I agree youtube is full of garbage and to find reliable thoughts is a task. I have issue seeing and reading is very difficult so I seek videos, pictures and detailed plans to accomplish my forge task.

I am enjoying being able to function at a level where I can do things for the most part. xxxx, trial and error is a brain development tool in any case!

Edited by Mod30
inapropriate language

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I don't like to get personal but sometimes you just have to know to be any help. What're your issue(s)? I'm a TBI survivor and I'm hearing similarities but I see things that aren't. 

The mixing tube is the main burner tube between the air intake and the outlet into the forge. 

I can't picture screwing a cap on the end of the tube with the mig tip tapped into it and having a burner. A tiki torch maybe but not a burner. We have a terminology and language issue so please don't think I'm picking at you.

Are you familiar with Ron Reil's burner? The basic type is known as a "Linear" burner, the air intake is in a straight line with the mixing tube and outlet. In line = linear. Yes?

The other major type are known as a "jet ejector". Commercially the device isn't used for burners however they are strong induction devices so make good home built burners. It's harder to make burners from plumbing and get high efficiency so starting with a type that is generally WAY TOO efficient makes it easier. Make sense?

Mike Porter designed and published a book regarding his burner and is probably the best known. His design is very effective though it requires greater precision and shop skills.

I developed the T burner to be effective and require as few shop tools and the minimum of shop skills. You can find an older set of plans for the T burner in the propane burner section here. I've made some mods since posting it but mostly to make it easier to build and some parts I specified are getting hard to find so there are alternatives.

Frosty The Lucky.

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18 hours ago, Irondragon Forge & Clay said:

There is a thread on recommended You Tube videos you might want to look at.

 

Thank you, my Sunday will be reviewing these links.

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OK, I spent day on YouTube & this site. After getting very tired I went back to the T burner of Frosty"s and decided I will follow these plans. I went to hardware store & got parts to start again. Only issue is the. 033 tip & configure to attach to or work with T. I am failing to understand clearly although I have an idea how to accomplish. Wish me success!

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Mikey98118, my error. .035 is the tip. Does this configuration look better? IMG_20191021_121111.thumb.jpg.42797028686a754e36ef8146db2eaabf.jpg

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How does it work with that elbow?  Having the mig tip just barely off center from the end of the burner tube that goes into the flare causes people lot's of trouble. Have you tried it yet?

Pnut

Edited by pnut

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Pnut, That is the configuration from Frosty's T burner if I understand it correctly. It burns clean compared to my previous configuration. I heated a 1/2  inch round landscape steel spike in about  2 minutes. It got red/yellow hot and I was able to flatten it with 2 strikes. So it seems to do the heating required but I need to play with the PSI.  I had it on 5psi. I  saw blue & red flame swirls and seem to remember a video as to what the flame should look like so I will need to go back & find that video.

I thought the tip was centered and maybe it looks off center in photo but it looks OK to me- then again?

I was thinking about changing the T and all piping from 1"x3/4" to a 1/2" x 1/4" because I purchased both configurations at the hardware store? Your thoughts?

I have a lot to learn about heating metals and the various types. I did start to look at links supplied above which has some great videos on that subject and others. Just starting but the replies and links will aid my task.

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4 minutes ago, RToons said:

configuration from Frosty's T burner

If I remember correctly, Frosty's T-burner doesn't use the 45° elbow where the burner goes into the forge. I think the elbow would change the fuel/air flow.

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Looking at Frosty's PDF and from the photo on page 4 it looks like a 45 and NOT straight in. Not a 90 for sure.

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Do you think I should go straight in? I do not understand flow dynamics so I wanted to stay with a known element.

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