Frosty Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 What's the pitch on your shop roof Jennifer? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 Thanks George.. Very kind of you and much appreciated.. First day forging again after nearly lopping off the right hand.. Felt really good swinging the hammer mentally.. But had to really pay attention to how each swing felt and the level of power and angle. Latticino It will be a custom stainless steel double-layer affair.. Will have the inner flue and then the outer collar.. I'm going with 12" sq single wall for the flue/stack. I've measured the temperatures of the stack and I can't find anything over 210F on the forge in the trailer even with really heavy wrought iron hammer forging/welding. There is enough air volume going up the stack.. I have started collecting 12" double wall stainless steel commercial (metalbesto) but don't see the need other than what the rule book reads as for "Coal heating appliance".. in the code book.. A forge is "not" a heating appliance.. Meaning or pertaining to the "heating of the building".. So I'll make the thimble, get everything hooked up and then call in the fire chief to talk about it.. The thimble I'm making will accept the metalbesto pipe soooooooooo..... If you have information pertaining to open coal forges and code I'm all ears.. I looked for 5hrs trying to chase down anything I could and even reached out to an old guy who was around in the 80s doing code.. He said there are "no regs" on coal fired open forges.. And since they are not used for heating a space the current codes do not apply as a "heating appliance".. LOL.. We know what that means.. LOL.. NOTHING... The thimble will be fitted on the diagonal vs square to square (chimney/building) this will allow it to divert the water and snow on a sharp uphill leading edge.. I'll also make some Sharks fins (aka crickets) to also split the snow when it starts to slide.. The thimble will have a rather large thick wide flange on top that will rest on the roof and be sealed with calk being screwed thru the roof and into the subframe.. Over this will be a Dektite silicone conformal seal . The inside portion will just have a sleeve that fits inside the secondary down tube.. What is not being said, is the opening will have to be framed in with the same metal Z and C channel that the building is made from.. The only 2 places that are structurally easy, are the very peak and then about 4" in from the bottom of the eves. This will have to be completely framed in with the Z and C of the original building so all of it will be steel. Frosty 4/12 pitch The original design was 2/12.. But told them 4/12 minimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 Well it's been sometime since an update. The lights working has led me to work on another project since I'm still forging in the trailer and it's winter.. Heat is a great thing and to heat the trailer I used my self made indirect portable heater.. But, last year a guy had an old commercial one for sale free so I went and picked it up and have been working on getting it running. And since I now had a commercial made unit. Tore the unit I made apart and thru most of it in the scrap heap.. Once I figured out it was the transformer that was bad I fired it up but it is awfully smokey.. Being an older burner without a retention head and no way to adjust the air flow to the burner I ordered some smaller nozzles.. With this, I feel badly having a piece of history just outside weathering and decided it needed a new coat of paint to help it survive another 70 years.. So cleaned it all and painted it.. I believe these are the original colors though it's hard to tell.. The color swatches were from areas not exposed to light/enviroment. The green looked correct on the computer monitor but looks a little bright.. Maybe it will darken up a little more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Jennifer, 300k BTUs/hour will heat a good large space. I have the little brother of this one with propane fuel (50k/hr). Do you have any problem getting bulk kerosene or #2 fuel oil? G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 The original rating was 300K.. Yup, good for large area.. When I fired it up it was super smokey.. I don't know if this is typical of this vintage oil burner or not.. But, I'm not happy with all the smoke.. Smells like unburnt diesel.. I'm sure there is unburnt fuel.. So have installed a much smaller nozzle .60 gph with 45d solid. I'll see if this cleans it up some. There is no air adjustment just nozzle size.. I know that a .60gph nozzle does not put out 300K btus.. The trailer only being 8x8x10 heats up super toasty quickly.. Quickly enough I open the roof vents and the back.. The indirect heater I made worked super well both in the school and heating the trailer and burned clean.. So the clean burning is where I'm heading. If I can't get this to burn clean, I'll start looking at ways of installing a modern retention head oil burner and do away with the older tech.. I hate modifying older tech so will try to figure out a way that won't destroy what's there. I just stop and get 5gal at a time. I don't use enough diesel even with all the equipment to justify a bulk storage tank though when I see one cheap enough I'm like oooohh.. Manlift, mini dozer are gasoline.. The Kubota B6000 and IH 3800 are diesel but don't use any of them enough for bulk.. George what model do you have? Have you taken it apart for maintenance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Young lady, its amazing how resourceful you are Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewoon ik Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Nice. Try kerosine or petroleum if it's something you find. The last is more designed for heating purposes and less smokey. Since it is an older unit, i think it will be designed for that kind of fuel as well and not the diesel as in gasoil, diesel as in heating fuel cna be good as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 Kerosene here is nearly 5.00 a gallon.. Vs road diesel at 4.09 gallon. What you are calling Petroleum might be our #2 heating oil.. #2 fuel/heating oil and gas station/ petrol station, pump diesel are nearly the same and can be used interchangeably. the only real difference is they add a color agent on heating fuel.. The difference here is that road fuel is taxed at a slightly higher rate. Kerosene is a cleaner burning fuel as it's more refined but I'm not willing to pay the extra amount.. If the burner is tuned correctly it will burn just as cleanly with road or heating diesel fuel. Aeroil designed a bunch of heaters and burners that were designed as multifuel, meaning kero or diesel or heating fuel. Be nice if I could actually find a manual for the heater.. It might have suggestions in it for just such a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 In Colorado, and I beleive most states have a similar system, a person, usually farmers and construction or other industrial users, can order gasoline and diesel fuel from a supplier and have it delivered to tanks on their site with a minimum order of probably around 500-1000 gallons but because it is designated for non-road use it is dyed a different color than what you would buy at a filling station and does not have the road tax included in the price. IIRC road tax is often around 30 cents per gallon but some states are significantly higher and lower than that. It is illegal to use industrial or farm fuel in a vehicle that is used on the public roads but the practice is not uncommon. However, if the state Department of Revenue suspects that someone is abusing the practice they can get a warrant, stop your vehicle, sample the fuel tank and if it is the wrong color you will get a bill for the estimated unpaid taxes plus interest and penalties going back several years. IIRC there was a construction company that got caught this way and was looking at a tax bill of several hundred thousand dollars. All it takes is one disgruntled ex-employee to tip off the DOR. GNM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 2 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said: If the burner is tuned correctly it will burn just as cleanly with road or heating diesel fuel. Any possibilities for using vegetable oil, whether purchased new or filtered deep-fryer oil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Nah, they aren't that universal fuel John and that one is an oldy. Unfortunately they weren't built to last a long time, 10 years of seasonal use is pretty good. More modern ones last longer but still tend to burn out and die. It's usually wet fuel that gets them. HeatStar makes one that looks just like it and Aeroil is still making that type, model name of "Heat Wagon." Have you contacted them? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 George.. Nothing involving the government is simple,, Well other than they will tax you on nearly everything they can. I could get a tank, and then contact all the correct government officials, file for my gas tax stamp, etc, etc. and after all the time not really be worth it.. Heating oil is red here.. Not sure about off road diesel.. John, given time, money or both.. You can burn what ever one wants to with enough research and equipment. My used oil burner that I use to heat the school can burn any oil.. Veg or fossil. If one wanted to invest in a used oil burner and attach it to one of the expensive IFH (they take a regular oil burner vs special parts) than it can be done. The furnace in the school doesn't smoke nor does it smell like burnt oil. Look back at my inderct fired oil furnace.. It worked really well.. Had a .65 gph nozzle in there and a24gallon fuel cell.. Frosty, the heat exchanger/burn chamber in this old furnace is in very good shape.. No cracks, holes or the like. It seems in some ways the older items were made differently. Heavier maybe.. The new retention head burners burn a little hotter and they only use enough metal thickness to have it last long enough as you pointed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Around here the delivery charges make it cost about as much as just getting it at the stations anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 21 hours ago, Steve Sells said: Young lady, its amazing how resourceful you are Thanks Steve.. I'm not really sure what came first.. Frugality? I think.. When I was 3 I asked my mom for some money so I could go eat.. She looked at me and said " Go work for it".. We were in an environment where at 3yrs old I could in fact go to work and make the money to go and eat.. I soon learned if I don't spend it, I don't have to make it.. Lucky I suppose that money has not been the only goal.. (getting rich is not a goal). But, it's also a down fall.. Getting older and this past year has been brutal physically. So, now I'm super envious of people who work for a company with paid sick time, paid vacations and such. One of my more archaic sayings is " Do with or do without".. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 Well the heater is painted and assembled.. I have to hook up the thermo switch and then it's test fire time. I'm hopeful that the smaller nozzle will take care of the smokey stack. If not I'll look at ways of putting a modern burner in without destroying the unit.. Sheet metal is cheap and this design leaves some room for expression. I've included a flyer by Aeroil.. They loved green, red and black.. Seems like everything they made were those colors.. I hope the paint darkens up a little more but I think it's about as close as I could get swatch wise from areas not exposed to UV and rust. Do you guys know anything about Thermo-snap switches.. Looking for a model number.. 24227, 120, and 11/67 mfg? There is also a 11-13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted February 18 Author Share Posted February 18 Heater is back together and a full 3hrs of use today. While its certainly a lot less smokey, it's still not burning as cleanly as I'd like.. I have a burner I can fit since I had all the parts to make a long tube burner.. The real argument is, do I spend the time to make this 100% of what I think it should be.. Or should I just leave it alone since by this time next year, the school will be up and running and I'll have someplace warm to forge and won't need to heat the trailer to work in. I know the true potential.. Thats where I fall apart between logic and reason. Install the retention head oil burner and have a more effective and efficient portable heating unit (which is nice when outside working).. Or leave it alone and suffer with the extra smoke and smell.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 I think it comes down to how much time and money do you want to spend getting it to work to YOUR specs? I've used some pretty old space heaters and the ones with exhaust stacks all smoke some. Ones without might smoke briefly while they light up. How about putting an extension on the stack to get the smoke above your head till everything gets hot. New ones aren't that expensive, you could probably shovel driveways a couple times a week and buy one in a month or two. It sure looks beautiful and it works pretty well. I think most of us know how much you love old tools and equipment and you've put enough into this one that not getting it running like it should wiykd be a shame. Understandable but . . . Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted February 18 Author Share Posted February 18 Frosty, thats the thing right.. I'm super happy with how it looks and overall it functions well "enough".. I have a 14ft stack on it now.. but when the wind blows oil smoke is pretty heavy and it floats low gets sucked into the blower and ends up inside the trailer. Much better than it was but still. Be really nice to find an owners/service manual.. I just got spoiled with the heater I made.. it was smoke-free and had plenty of heat.. The main part is limited service life.. What I mean is.. In another few months, I won't have a real use for this heater except to heat space and tractors when I'm out in the snow fixing them.. Which can be a really nice thing.. could have used it last week when I replaced a wheel bearing outside in 20F.. I guess this becomes the true answer since I have all the parts and burner.. It simply means having to adapt a holder plate and a fan shroud since I won't modify this unit.. I'll just make new pieces to keep it original. Some old oil burner tech guy would probably have an answer as to the question quickly in terms of how to clear the smoke.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 Yeah, a 14' stack would be kind of unwieldy to move around. The problem getting oil smoke to to that far is cooling and slowing down so what clears the stack just hangs there and drifts down. I wonder how feasible it would be to divert a little bit of the out put to the stack so it would have a warm forced draft to blow the smoke up and out. A little bit of flex pipe and some bailing wire would test the thought. Hmmm? The problem with small space heaters like mine is cold air, if it's much below say 10f it barely puts out heat. It's making the same BTUs but there is so much air blowing through the heat is really diluted. Still, laying under something at -10f it's really nice to have blowing on me. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted February 18 Author Share Posted February 18 Frosty, because this is a forced burn chamber unit, the exhaust is pressurized. The stack temps are pretty high because of this factor.. It's not as efficient as a "draft over fire" model which uses a chimney and barometric dampener. What is good is this can be put nearly anywhere and ducted to outside even with nearly a 90 degree elbow and ran 50ft out the side of a building easily with some upsized pipe. The stack temperature even at the 14ft mark with 20F and wind blowing temps is 180F at the top. The 14ft is to get the smoke as high up as possible to keep it away from the blower intake. Or else it just blows the smoke into the trailer.. It's an interesting machine.. Basically a "home or building" hot air furnace with the same cold air intake and heat output into ducting. Both the intake and and hot air output can be ducted as well as the chimney.. This model at 300K is designed to work even at low temperatures and still output ample amounhts of heated air. If you look up "indirect oil fired heaters" there is a ton of great info out there.. Some of the newer units use nearly the same arrangement for burner setup.. they use a flame retention head held in a tube with little windows on each side of the tube to collect the right amount of air. These being dialed in at the factory.. The output is very clean but these types of heaters are not as efficient as the totally separate burner models which use a separate blower.. Some of these burner/blower units use a venturi assist in the stack since they are "Draft over fire" And yes.. Having a heater blowing warm/hot air out into open space is still useful when working on equipment in the cold. I love the crispness of -10F to 16F winter air.. I really enjoy it.. But working in it.. Ah, not so much.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 Well, scratch that idea, I know less than I knew I didn't know. Working outside in cold weather used to be fun, then 10 years later not so much, by time I retired with 30 years working outside 6/10s not counting overtime. Winter has lost it's luster, we're thinking hard about doing the snowbird thing in the RV. Leave it at one of her son's places and cruise the lower 48 where it's warm. Heck, I might get to meet some of you in person down there! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewoon ik Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 smoking can be solved by adding up to 10% parafinated oil (petroleum) in your dieselfuel owners of some oldtimer dieselcars put it in when it is getting colder to reduce the smoke. May helps, since you said it is an oily smell, not an acidic smell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 4 hours ago, gewoon ik said: smoking can be solved by adding up to 10% parafinated oil (petroleum) in your dieselfuel They also have patches you can put on your arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Or ink you can put in it. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewoon ik Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 jen is now using patches to cure her smoking stack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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