jlpservicesinc

How to forge Fancy Blacksmith Basket Handle (4 rod twist). #1

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This latest video has a production glitch..  I am posting it because it's has good information other than the non sync issue which is in process with the software company.. 

I really don't want to edit it again in the other software as I'm burnt out..  I can do about 40hrs on the edit than I start going crazy and want to run away.. 

****  this video was in response to a comment from a fellow smith about how plain and not really graceful a 4 rod handle is vs a higher count handle..   While I for the most part agree there are ways to make a lower count handle as graceful and interesting..  

This is an example I forged to show him..      

This video is more about the handle itself and how it's done..  The  end finial is not really covered as this technique was covered in the "How to Forge bolts"video..

 

 

 

 

 

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Just amazing that we learn new tricks for doing things with every one of your videos. Thirty four or so years in the forge and I have never seen using a pair of scrolling tongs in the hardy hole to hold stock when making twists. It's one of those head slap moments and why didn't I think of that.:)

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Thanks..

LOL.. More than likely you won't see it anywhere else..  Well up till now..    If you use it and someone asks please share where you found the info.. I keep making the videos hoping it will help or make a difference for someone..   

I use the scroll tongs because they are handy in the trailer.. I have a different pair in storage.. Might make the next video how to on the subject.. 


 

 

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Posted (edited)

Ms. Sheila and I just finished watching - one more vote of appreciation for your elegant twisting vise. Yes, it took me a bit to get around the audio mismatch, as my vicarious muscle twitches were not syncing. We enjoyed hearing you "mumble" - Sheila said, "If that was mumbling, I loved it." I think that if you were mic'd up, and put no extra effort into the narration, in effect, not attempt to make it another tedious production value, it would be great. You don't want to be "spinning so many plates" as to take all of the enjoyment out of the project! Much appreciation for all of your time and effort!!

As to the finial - I thought that it was very easy to follow your process as illustrated.

Robert Taylor

Edited by Anachronist58
Addendum

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It was a very helpful video. The out of sync didn't throw me off. I also had a Huh! Moment seeing you use the scroll tongs to hold the stock for twisting. 

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Anachronist58 I didn't watch it and uploaded straight to YT.. Sat down for the first watch and I was like "What the gum shoes"..  I was dumb struck.  Been dealing with the software people for about about a week now.. 

I was able to watch it but even now it messes with me.. LOL..  Tell Ms Sheila thank you.. :) 

Thanks for the many kind words..       There has been a slew of people who like the titles but the out pouring for narration has been overwhelming..  I'll start to look for a mic.. 

Daswulf,  Surprise..  LOL..    

There are going to be a few more in the series of twisted handles..  or variations..    Tomorrow if I am up for it.. I will take on one of the toughest to do well.. :)  It's pretty cool.. 

I do really appreciate you guys commenting..  and the feed back is wonderful.. 

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I'm in good company here, your use of scrolling tongs was a real head slapper for me, consider it adopted. . . again! 

Straightening on the anvil face with a heavy hammer takes a LOT more feel than most intermediate smiths have and oh heck I straighten on a block of wood with a mallet to preserve the texture of the work. 

I'm not so crazy about real time narration, it's not as clear as it should be. Not saying your occasional muttered or grumbled comment wasn't entertaining they just didn't need high fidelity sound to come across clearly. If you wish to add narration I recommend dubbing it in during editing. It'll give you time to review the next step and maybe even script the narrative.

The two camera views were out of sync? :o REALLY? I just thought you were getting ahead of yourself a little. 

Well whadayaknow? Learn something all the time. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Yeah?, should hear me when things are going wonky. :rolleyes: Or probably not. No, better not to. :)

 

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Do either of you look as good in red fingernail polish? A little naughty language is actually good if your fingernails are pretty.

;)

Frosty The Lucky.

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Lol, lets not go there. I know Elizabeth would love to paint my nails for fun and a laugh. Already tried to get me to get a manacure. Yet is jealous of my cuticles. Told her hard work keeps them "whatever" cause I have no idea haha. 

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Ever have a pedicure? I highly recommend them for anybody with at least one foot. Guy nails and such are almost always better than the gals. Not looking, just stronger, healthier, etc. I think it's because we don't clean under them and they need the minerals. 

You should've seen Dad's toe nails after falling asleep by the pool, my older Sister and her cronies painted every one a different color. Dad didn't notice till he looked down. Mother had turned his flip flops upside down so he couldn't just slip into them. We were all waiting for his reaction. It was THE classic double take. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Jennifer should do one of these videos with the nails on one hand painted with the color range from cherry red to welding heat and on the other with the oxidation colors of the tempering spectrum.

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JHCC. I'm all for it wearing it.. They have some pretty amazing colors now and the gels are much more durable..  I usually get 1 day with regular polish and 3 days with Gels.. 

I'm tough on my nails as I do a lot of dragging with the nails and also flexing of the nails itself.. 

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JLP, just added you to my watch list.  While this is quite a good bit out of my current range, really well made and I am impressed at the ingenuity and skill displayed.  Absolutely loved the tongs in the hardy hole trick!

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Don't ever be afraid to try something..  The only thing that can happen is it won't work..   Now that I have shown it, you will start to see it everywhere.. :)  

Thanks for the add..   Lots of great info here and the videos have some tooling and other things that are for people who have not mastered forge welding..  

If you have any questions just let me know..  Happy to help anyway I can..  

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On 3/4/2019 at 10:44 AM, jlpservicesinc said:

****  this video was in response to a comment from a fellow smith about how plain and not really graceful a 4 rod handle is vs a higher count handle..   While I for the most part agree there are ways to make a lower count handle as graceful and interesting.. 

Plain and Graceful is subjective, and not at all constructive.  You don't need to get into an argument about it.

By using plain round bar most twists and cages look graceful, some more graceful than others.

I would think a comment on a  "comfort" grip when in use would be more relevant , but the twisted squared effect gives more of a WOW factor and is certanly a feature.

Personally I think the so called Rubiks cube twist is a pain when used as a handle or key chain or bottle opener handle, particularly for old hands like mine with a delicate skin, not the least to say how abrasive they are when used from and kept in a pocket.

Thank you for your contribution to the site it has helped and inspired many, criticism is easy, putting yourself out there is not.

Respect to you Jennifer.

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Good point about comfort as a handle John. I made a series of doffers for Deb's spinner group and discovered with the first group I offered up that pineapple twist handles went over like a sauerkraut milk shake. Cable twists on the other hand sold like crazy. 

Back when I had calloused hands I enjoyed rolling sharp corners in my hands, bottle caps were perfect. The ladies on the other hand don't have heavily calloused hands.

Softening corners and edges on some of the more dramatic twist patterns might do the trick. But comfort on handles is a big factor. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Thanks John..    Plain vs Graceful is very subjective and not at all constructive to many is very true.. 

There is a point with 4 rod handles though that can fail to be graceful or pleasant to look at..  This was what we were discussing.. Of course there was much more to the conversation so was paraphrased.. 

And artful eye is significantly different for most in some ways but  it has been shown Certain shapes have a tendency to draw the eye and this is what I believe the context we were looking at.. 

This handle feels really great in the hand..    The 6 or 8 rod and the flat handle are really very good as well.. 

out of these 4 handles which is your eye drawn to the most?  If comfort was not a concern.. 


 

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2 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:


 Plain vs Graceful is very subjective and not at all constructive to many is very true.. 

There is a point with 4 rod handles though that can fail to be graceful or pleasant to look at..  This was what we were discussing.. Of course there was much more to the conversation so was paraphrased.. 

And artful eye is significantly different for most in some ways but  it has been shown Certain shapes have a tendency to draw the eye and this is what I believe the context we were looking at..

out of these 4 handles which is your eye drawn to the most?  If comfort was not a concern.. 
 

There are many items that fall into the "Fail to be graceful or pleasant to look at" category, I was always a devotee of the "If it looks right, then it is right" mantra. I must have missed your discussions in the conversation, even ugly items can be transformed by a relatively small amount of adjustment/tweaking. Beauty being in the eye of the beholder.

"Certain shapes have the tendency to draw the eye,"

Certainly they do and as smiths we can produce left hand and right hand items, particularly useful in twists when making features, a right hand and left hand pair can influence the overall appearance of an item, either making it appear to be wider and lower, or taller and narrower, depending on how the items are arranged. Ideal for gates or firebaskets and where they are situated.

"out of these 4 handles which is your eye drawn to the most?"

I'm sorry but after many years of experience in this and other fields,I cannot bring myself to have an opinion on such a lack of information, I would have to consider any other factors before thinking of what (in my opinion) would be best for a given situation.   So I am opting out of answering this directly, I know which I consider to be the most difficult, but after all they are basically the same format.

And here's one for those who don't know which way to twist for the better (Tongue in cheek)

63585878_InsideOutsidecagetwist(4).JPG.6c4a63c00cf9c1c884ae03fde207f4e5.JPG

And this falls into the "  can fail to be graceful or pleasant to look at." category quite easily if not manipulated correctly. This was a third attempt to get the build up to look something like what I liked, and felt comfortable to both eye and hold. Now I can feel OK to do it proper, this was helped by electric welding rather than in the fire, I am sure you can realise why.

I suppose its an "arty item" in its own right viewd as an object, but I cannot get my head around this "it's art" thing, there has to be more to it than that for me.

Enjoy yourselves.

 

 

 

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From JLPS previous item ; 

There is a point with 4 rod handles though that can fail to be graceful or pleasant to look at..  This was what we were discussing.. Of course there was much more to the conversation so was paraphrased.. "
 

I think this pic of the experimental stages help to illustrate its not just the 4 rod handles that edict applies to.

To follow on the   "If it looks right it is right" this is a pic of the progress to get on to produce something I was comfortable with, your opinion may be different.

My preference is ths lower one, Third attempt.

369330572_Doubletwistcagefirstattemptstogetittolookandfeelright..JPG.74708628c4f66d140d4ee838ec7823b4.JPG

 

 

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My preference also is for the 3rd attempt..    


I have mentioned before about the S effect..  The  2 earlier attempts show this S effect where the coils are pushed up onto themselves thus creating more of an S look.. 

The 3rd attempt creates a flow that is much more graceful to the eye.. 

The flat twists though interesting from a smithing stand point for myself do not hold that eye catching look..  It's just lacking..  I keep thinking how to bring that alive and keep it traditional tooling only.. 
 

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17 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

My preference also is for the 3rd attempt..    

I have mentioned before about the S effect..  The  2 earlier attempts show this S effect where the coils are pushed up onto themselves thus creating more of an S look.. 

The 3rd attempt creates a flow that is much more graceful to the eye..

There is a reason for that, the first two attempts had excessive material on the inner core although from the same diameter material, This caused the S effect.

By reducing the number of rods in the inner section, when the outer section is placed and twisted to form the cage, the inner section does not bind up and cause the S effect

If you look carefully you will see five rods internally, six rods externally. Which can cause problems other problems. on the plus side,  no mandrels were needed or used in the production of this item

But it's all good fun

Enjoy

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Sorry..  You were not in on the S effect and was referencing a different thread..       I should have elaborated more but forget which information is discussed where..  

We again were talking about the S effect and how this S effect is controlled by how  many twists are first used and then the amount of pressure applied to open the basket in a traditionally done basket..  To many twists or to much pressure on opening will create a section that looks more like an S than flowing.. 

..      In your example this can also happen if the inner and outer baskets can't move together to get the same length ratio..    IE the inner is longer so it gets pushed together (can't expand the same as the outer so to much pressure)  or vicea versa..

 On a lot of the earlier handles I had done I never noticed this S effect but knew there was something about the twist which I did not like.. 

Wasn't till I came back to smithing that I noticed this as being the culprit..  IE  (as applied to traditional baskets) to many twists and/or to much pressure applied when opening the basket. 

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I also think that the distribution of the heat is a major factor in any twisting being undertaken.

1861770525_16ElongatedCagetwistinsolidbar.thumb.jpg.a522dbfb54740dd680e3237a5a14a89c.jpg

 

On this old example the right hand end was slightly cooler than the left.

So many variables, tricky to tie them down, but all worthy of consideration.

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