Rashelle Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 It's been awhile since I've posted in here. Things have been busy. As some of you know I'm the head blacksmith/bladesmith for an outdoor survival school. We have a new building being set up for the blacksmith shop. The new building has a different building inspector then the old building. The new buildings inspector isn't going to sign off till we have a couple issues settled with the old buildings building inspector. Which happens to be a new (rather then the original building inspector who signed off on us having a blacksmith shop set up where we do, in the first place.) Long story short ................... I've been told I need to have documentation showing how many BTU's the forges put out and UL listings for the forges and burners. Most of the forges are made by me to be easy maintenance: welded angle iron frame surrounding hard brick with 2" insboard inside lining, sacrificial brick floor, pop off top to just change out lining as needed. Looks good and fast maintenance for the school. Some forges have Frosty T burners others salvaged burners from former bought forges. So here is my quandry how does one get a UL listing for something one made, and what is the math for figuring out BTU's. Note I'm going to be asking just what code it is that we are having to comply with so we can understand what is is we are complying with. I'm also wondering if there are UL listings for burners and forges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Easiest way I know to calculate BTUs is to weigh the propane tank; then run the forge for a set number of hours and weigh the tank again. Once you know how many pounds of propane you burned you can calculate BTU per pounds/hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashelle Posted March 1, 2019 Author Share Posted March 1, 2019 Thank you Thomas. Looks like I'll be taking a medical scale to work tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 11 hours ago, Rashelle said: and UL listings for the forges and burners. Ain't about to happen. I don't believe you could even find a name brand commercial forge with a UL listing; they're simply to expensive, and the market is too small to support it You can find UL listings on some safety valves used on heating equipment, but not on the equipment itself; he should now that. Furthermore, fire regulations in most municipalities, are issued and enforced by and through the local fire department; meaning their word goes--not his. I would suggest you have a took with them first, and then get back to him; maybe with some gentle questions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashelle Posted March 1, 2019 Author Share Posted March 1, 2019 Thank you Mikey. That's what I thought in regards the UL listings. We had the fire dept. go through and they were happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Maybe he needs to know that? The saying that rules in his line of work is "one aw shucks wipes out a thousand atta boys". If he is just covering his six, what the fire department says should settle him down...otherwise, you gots a political dilemma; I aovides that like the plague Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 You can also make a good case for being grandfathered in as an existing facility. New building doesn't mean it's a new facility. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fowllife Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 I have dealt with similar things in other building aspects in the past. Mikey is right, your not going to get a UL cert number unless your willing to shell out $$$$$. My advise is to go over the inspectors head. Hopefully the inspector is not also the Chief Building Official, or whatever they call the head of the building department in your area. Call and try to get a meeting set up with the local head building official and go in there with a letter of approval from the local fire chief and explain your situation. This stuff is all going to be area dependent and even in my area it varies widely depending on the building department that oversees the work. Most of the US uses a form of the International Building Code, I'm not sure what Canada uses. In the IBC there is not such thing as being grandfathered in with a new building. Unfortunately I think your best route would be to remove the forges from the building until after your final building inspection. Hopefully these are not hard plumbed. You may even be able to just tell the inspector the forges will only be stored in the building and will always be operated outside. HERE at least the building inspector doesn't step foot in the building after your final inspection. Make him happy now and as long as there are no life safety issues and the Fire Chief is ok with it move them in after your have a Certificate of Occupancy. It's unfortunate, but sometimes there is no way around it when you have a by the book only inspector. There would be several codes to reference just for this one issue. HERE we reference the IBC, International Fire Code, International Fuel Gas Code, Iternational Mechanical Code, and probably the NFPA 58 (Propane Gas Code) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 If you really want to know more about UL listings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashelle Posted March 1, 2019 Author Share Posted March 1, 2019 Thank y'all. The forges won't go into the new building until after the certificate of occupancy. We'll be using them at the old building until then. The new building is having the propane lines and tank and the rest professionally installed. The hold up is the building inspector stating the forges and burners have to be UL certified. So I will be talking with the higher management about the suggestions for going over the inspectors head, etc. Thank you Steve, I'd read that thread in the past and had forgotten about it. I'll pop back on and let y'all know what worked (or didn't) when we get through this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 I'd bet that the Johnson Forges used by schools are UL listed and have the flame out detection and automatic shut-offs and that's why they cost 100 times more than a "normal" forge. I worked a project once that UL was required. It was a "one-off" custom job that we had to make several more to allow UL to destroy them in their testing. Multiplied the cost enough that the customer balked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 You may have to leave off the gas instalation untile after the certification of occupancy then get a remodeling permit for the gas lines. Guy is being a pain because he is ignorant. If you were installing gas stoves or pottery kilns he wouldn’t say squat as long as the gas lines were installed right: But hey, install coal forges and call them fireplaces... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashelle Posted March 2, 2019 Author Share Posted March 2, 2019 Every once in awhile I demo a portable coal forge outside. Heehee I get rather amused at thinking of supervising multiple instructors teaching way too many kids fire maintenance as well as the forging part during the Summer when we run multiple classes at once. That'd be scary. I'm envisioning a room full of kittens with, like a hundred mice tossed in then a few puppies and thousands of disturbed fire ants all at once. Spent almost the full work day reading the international fire code, made a good dent in it too. Plus updates. Bleh that can be rather dry. Researching other pertinent codes also. Seems like I end up doing this in spurts. Talk to the upper management then wait weeks then have to re- go thru it all again. Meanwhile everything so far has backed up what I said in the first place. On the plus side am waiting on another inspection...... Took notes on where to take notes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 On 3/1/2019 at 7:15 PM, Rashelle said: That'd be scary. I'm envisioning a room full of kittens with, like a hundred mice tossed in then a few puppies and thousands of disturbed fire ants all at once. You forgot, the room's used to package super potent cat nip. Children and fire are kind of like that you know. . . I was. . . Am. Sounds like fun to watch, from a safe distance. How about live streaming it online? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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