Gas Forge in Basement

[banane]

Hallo folks,

I was looking for a place to build a smal workshop in and was offered a wine cellar with concrete cealing, walls and floor. Above this there is a rarely used workshop (stone walls). The overall setting is a small village with the next two houses within 10m (30F). Thus I was hoping to avoid the smell of a coal forge and using a gas forge. I do know that propane is heavier than air as well as during the burning process CO2 and if the flame is bad CO are produced (which are both deadly and tastless/smellless). Thus a suffiecient ventilation and propane/CO/CO2 sniffers would be needed.

The propane bottle must not be stored in the basement. Is it enough to not store it in the basement and have it inside while working or would this benefit an accident?

I thought about using a ventilation capable of pumping 14 m³/min (494 CF/min), which would be 840m³/h of air together with a hood over the forge and for the air to stream back into the room a 20cm (8inch) diameter tube from outside. Is this enough air exchange?

Would you advise against this plan?

Would you rather use coal in this setting?

Or would you not take offer of a room and look for something more suitable?

 

Thank you all for help, warnings (or even an insult for bad ideas ;-) I might need one)

banane

[ThomasPowers]

What are the local regulations on the storing and using of propane?   Where I am at you are not supposed to store propane in an inhabited structure and in addition it must be a certain distance from things like an electrical breaker box.  The propane company had to move their tank that supplies our kitchen stove further away recently.

[Glenn]

Tell us more about the rarely used workshop please.

You will want to contact the propane company and ask for their advice. Can you quietly contact the local fire department and ask their opinion, off the record. Tell them you want to set up a modified BBQ grill. 

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Banane, glad to have you. 

That's not an easy question for us to answer this side of the world has different laws and codes regarding flammables. Where I am you can do some things with methane you can't with propane. You CAN make it safe to burn propane in almost any space but it may not be legal or economically practical. You con't really need a CO2 detector but CO is a must and if you're setting up in a basement you'll want a flammable gas detector and alarm. 

As recommended already I'd talk to professionals but try not to tell code enforcement WHERE I wanted to set up. It's easier for them to say no than yes. No is their default answer and you don't want them making it official unless it's justified.

We'd LOVE to see some pictures of your proposed shop space. We LOVE pics. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Hans Richter]

Hi Banane, welcome to IFI and his well of wisdom. I run my little gas forge inside the shop without any problems. Knowing the Mosel wine cellars I believe you have enough space. A CO alarm device is also a great advantage for Safety (with a IFI capital letter S). Don’t worry about smoke of your solid forge to, ones the ember glows it also depends on your capability to enlighten a coal forge.

During my forging and bronze melting/casting (outside under a sheath),  I have my 25lbs (12.5kg) propane tank within a radius of 10 feet (3mtr) around the forge/furnace always aware that the hoses don’t get in contact with any hot item even crawling up heat after shut down.  Remove the cylinder after work to a covered outside storage place.

Also very curious about some pictures of your future shop. Let us know and contact the members you want to know more by PM.

Till then ‘ Schmiede das Eisen solange es heiss ist‘ (beat the iron as long as it’s hot)

Cheers, und mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Hans

[banane]

Thank you all for the answers.

Regulation on propane storage: Musst not be stored in basements as well as in 10m of open fire. One needs a place in fresh air and not within an inhabited building. But you are allowed to keep them in your garage - as which the upper workshop counts.

Upper workshop: originally a small garage (concrete), used rarely (less than 3 times per month) to make smaller woodworks and has no gas or flamable liquid stored. Unfortunatly this is all I know about it.

Glenn Do you mean to contact the propane company to check wheather there are tanks or similar things around which would prohibit a forge? Are the firedepartement and the propane company the ones in charge in your country? I am in contact with the chimney sweeper who musst (at least in Germany as far as I konw) say that everything is correct and working as inteded. But this guy says that he has not a clue and I should provide him with a building-authority approval of the forge (which I don't have) or more information about the exhaustion fumes.

Frosty thank you for the welcome. So a flamable gas detector and a CO detection both with alarms. Thanks for the tip of not metioning the WHERE (would have made this mistake)

I will be able to get pics untill the end of the week from the upper workshop. I only have lousy pictures of the room itself right now (see below).

Richter thanks for encouriging the coal forge (I would say that I can resionable fast light the forge and happy that you say that this still might be an option). Your propane tank handling sound good to me. Do you also have to ask the chimney sweeper in belgium?

If I missed something which I should have answered feel free to point it out - all it can do is helping .

Thank you all, Cheers, Liebe Grüße

Banane

 

first picture is the entrance, second is one half of the room.

More pictures can follow during/end of the week

[Charles R. Stevens]

That advantage of the coal forge in this situation is that it is esentualy a fire place. Many places historically burnt coal in open grates. Your chimney sweep would be much more familiar with this set up than a gas forge. As to the gas forge, think kitchen range hood. Either way belts and suspenders, ventilation for the shop and exact stack for the heat soarse 

[Mikey98118]

2 hours ago, banane said:

Thank you all for help, warnings (or even an insult for bad ideas ;-) I might need one)

Have you ever heard the advice never to look down the barrel of a gun? You are considering excepting a situation where all the possible things that can go wrong will leave you on very thin ice; why would you do that?

[Charles R. Stevens]

Mike, there is president for basement blacksmith shops. It was actually fairly common for buggy shops. Now I admit that my first choice isn’t a high pressure gas appliance but If one thinks along the lines of a fireplace this can be safely done.

I certainly don’t see huge fire risk to the structure. Ventilation, fire safety and Co/fuel gas detectors are paramount. You only have one way out, you can not let a fire trap you. If co builds up and you pass out, you won’t wake up. Even the build up of placer gas (flamible gas from heated coal) can be a bad situation.  

Safety has to be built in, not only to the shop, but into your habits. 

[Glenn]

Charcoal may be an option as a solid fuel that produces little smoke.

[Frosty]

Hit it on the head Charles. If CO puts you to sleep in the basement you're done for. Now I'm wondering if you could hook up a CO/gas detector alarm to an exhaust fan. If CO or propane levels build up too much the strong ventilation fan starts automatically. 

The people who sweep our chimney sold us the wood stove. They're certified to install and service wood and oil stoves but won't even give you an opinion about a gas fired appliance. They will recommend a company that services gas appliances though and that's who I talk to. When I'm asking about one of my home built gas burning appliances I don't ask the people who service our furnace so they don't assume any liability.

Our country is really litigious, people tend to sue companies and other folk at the drop of a hat. This makes it really dangerous for a professional or company to even know you're doing something that might burn the shop down or blow it up. By law they have to report you  or assume a level of liability if you do yourself a mischief. For an exaggerated example, it'd be like seeing the neighbor's 8 year old playing with a pistol and not calling his/er parents, the police or taking it away. Make sense?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Hans Richter]

Hi B, after looking at the pictures and as a work safety adviser I didn’t recommend any solid forge fire in the basement. Because of:

-only one way to escape in case of emergency

-eventually smoke emission after lighten up the solid forge 

In Belgium it is the insurance company and their ‘Sachverständige’ advisers decide what’s possible and what not together with several laws by the kings addicts.

The appearance of the propane in the basement is only temporary and together with a permanent powerful ventilation as you described it will be doable to run a gas smithy down stairs like Charles encouraged.

B.t.w. I also mount a flame killer between gas hose and cylinder to avoid flashback into to tanks as an Hose brake valve as well -look at your local Hornbach (very good German hardware store) and you will find.

However you have to choose where the smithy will be located (garage or basement).

Its already looks funny to me if you heat up your work piece in the garage to run down to the basement to ‘mangle’ it on the anvil in the basement 

[banane]

Am I understanding this correct:

Frosty and Charles you both recommend: A fan for ventialtion of the shop AND a chimney for the heat source possibly with a second fan to help the airflow. In addtion to this a CO sensor and a flammable gas sensor with an alarm coupled with an exhaust fan. (is this correct?)

Do you think that a smoke hood together with a 14 m³/min (494 CF/min) fan would be enough standard ventilation or do you think that I need a second one?

 

@Charles R. Stevens did I understand correctly that you are in favour of a coal/charcoal/coaks rather than high pressurised gas? (Btw thinking about what Glenn said - doesnt charcoal burn a lot faster than coaks, I mean expensive?)

 

For weather I should use gas or coal I did not understand your point @Hans Richter

44 minutes ago, Hans Richter said:

-only one way to escape in case of emergency

-eventually smoke emission after lighten up the solid forge

regardless the firesource there is only one exit (I am pretty shure I missunderstood you there) and why should the smoke emission be a problem WHEN you have a fan (together with a  smoke hood) pulling the fumes from the forge into the smoke outlet. So did you mean, that you would not recommend this basement? (the flame killer sounds like another good backup)

 

Thank you Frosty for this; I think I will be able to transfer this way of doing this to Germany.

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

The people who sweep our chimney sold us the wood stove. They're certified to install and service wood and oil stoves but won't even give you an opinion about a gas fired appliance. They will recommend a company that services gas appliances though and that's who I talk to. When I'm asking about one of my home built gas burning appliances I don't ask the people who service our furnace so they don't assume any liability.

 

@Mikey98118 please don't get me wrong. I am considering a situation where I am - not knowing better - looking down the barrel. And when the ice is that thin I hope to encourage everyone to tell me that I should not walk it. And thinking about such things makes me not lighting up the forge in a basement without advice   ( but maybe this is just an oddity of mine)

2 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

4 hours ago, banane said:

Thank you all for help, warnings (or even an insult for bad ideas ;-) I might need one)

Have you ever heard the advice never to look down the barrel of a gun? You are considering excepting a situation where all the possible things that can go wrong will leave you on very thin ice; why would you do that?

Charles says that you know what you are doing with basement blacksmith shops. Seeing the pictures - how would you proceed? Do you even think that this place is worth a shot?

 

Thank you all for the help. It is very much appreciated. Please let me know if using the "@" function in this conext is correcrt use or not.

Banane

 

PS: Hans: If I ever unwisely choose to ignore Charles " Safety has to be built in, not only to the shop, but into your habits.  " and I start running down stairs with glowing iron I'll make sure to take a video as amusement and a "not to"   for now I have the option to have everything in the basement or to keep looking for another place.

[Latticino]

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

CO/gas detector alarm to an exhaust fan

Greenheck makes one (VOC controls), have used them on a couple of public maintenance garages as well as a car dealership drop-off facility.  Here it is required to have a low level constant exhaust as well as an exhaust system for the fume purge function.  You have gotten very good advise from folks in this thread, but to elaborate a little:

1. Be sure you have a source of makeup air for whatever you will be exhausting, you can't pull more air out than you replace.
2. Code requirements differ depending on location, but those are the minimum requirements for construction.  In some cases it is wise to exceed code minimums.
3. I am a fan of natural draft chimneys for solid fuel fired forges.  Super sucker side draft work very well.  Gas forges are a little more difficult to ventilate.  There I don't think it is cost effective to hood the forge.  General exhaust works pretty well, and ducted inlets from both the room peak and near floor level are typically advisable.  2 CFM/square foot or 6 air changes per hour, whichever is greater is a reasonable rule of thumb for minimum ventilation.  Go with your local code.
4. There may be different code requirements depending on whether you take your combustion air from the room, or ducted from the building exterior.  You can do the latter if you have a blown gas burner system
5. Looks like routing your ducts may be a little challenging unless you plan on penetrating the floor.  May be an issue if you go for a solid fuel forge, but for general exhaust that may not be as much of a deal. 
6. Not sure if flashback arrestors are required for propane.  Would have to research further.  Think they are primarily for acetylene tanks.

[Hans Richter]

Hi Banane, thanks for your reply and the serious way you approach this question. So ……………. If you decide to use the basement as the primary workshop I advise a small gas forge to use right in the presence of your anvil and vice (the ‘hot iron run’ was indeed ironically)

Next,  -did you ever try to enlighten a coal forge with moister coal (don’t care if charcoal, anthracite or cokes) low depression weather conditions and less experience? (I do)

Best Practice within the industry ask for at least an air exchange of 8000 ltr per hour/per welder for welding fumes, you got 14 000 ltr’s for a stinky/smoking solid fuel forge.

With a small gas forge and CO detection it’s only a question of a small turn on the gas valve and you are back in control, with a solid fire place that another question.

So that’s my humble advice. Nice to have you here and follow the treat with all the comments.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Pound for pound coal and charcoal contain the same amount of energy, cubic meter/foot is a different animal. And yes a tone of charcoal is more expensive and takes up a lot more storage space than coal. It is also easer for an errant spark to find a home in it.

so for coal and charcoal modeling your system on basement fireplace hearths gives you something that your chimney, building code office and fire safty office more likely has a better hand on. In a cement/stone vault fire is only a risk to materials you bring in, unless you bring in so much flamible material that it can actually decompose the cement. Risk to you is an not her mater but again, not storing a ton of coal or charcoal or having a lot of wooden furniture or fuel gasses present leaves you only with ventilation issues. It has been done many times so their are examples to fallow. 

As to pro pain or LP it is heavier than air so leaks are a risk to be midigated, ventilation is certainly strait forward, and as Latticino deals in ventilation for a living his advice is as close to gossful as you get. For propain, fuel storage out side the forge, shutting off the fuel outside the forge (if there is a leak the gas doesn’t collect in the shop) and a fuel gas detector are mandatory additions to ventilation. With a gas forge we are moving from fire place to industrial welding space   

Haunts is certainly knowledgeable but off the top of my head I didn’t  remember what his day job was. He is certainly a lot closer to both your site as well as to the mindset of folks you might have to deal with if things get official. 

Safety for you and those around you is paramount. Death or injury will take the fun out of blacksmithing. Especially when you are not the victim.

 

[ThomasPowers]

Some of the coal I use is stored in a bucket of water as fines and I'm used to lighting it. 

[Hans Richter]

Mr.Powerssssssssssssss you know better?! - just board 50lbs (fraction 3/4-1inch)  anthracite stored outside and wet as an ………… (fill in what your xxxxx mind suggest). Maybe a high air moister or rain isn’t a problem in the Texas dessert, in central Europe it is 

[ThomasPowers]

No it's a common method of using fines in the forge.  My father used it when he was in college taking engineering in the 50's.  I use it in the 2010's . Of course we are using bituminous coal and not anthracite.

[banane]

Ok Guys here comes a (sad) update:

In Germany it is prohibited to work with propane within basements or similar environments. If you start to change a building i.e. build a chimney or ventialtion system the chimney sweeper is allowed (if he is a nice guy and has an awesome day - he might not ) to ask for a so called  "bauaufsichtliche Zulassung"  (generall technical approval) which does not exist for forges (of any type in Germany). You can get this approval for a couple of hundret Euros. Thus it seems to me that it is in Germany almost impossible to build up a legal forge in a basement. If you work in a garage or similar setting you will not need such an approval nor will you need the chimney sweeper - because the forge is not installed permanently. On top of this you may install a fan to help ventilation without approval as it is not absolutly neccesery from the beginning.

Thank you all for the numerus helpfull and polite answers, I have learned a lot. Looks like I need to find a different place - not because it would be impossible but because it would be illegal.

Banane

[JHCC]

There's always induction, of course.

Good luck with the hunt!