Nobody Special Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 True, boss. In fact, my favorite pots and pans either have copper bottoms or a steel sandwich with a copper middle. But the issue with copper exposed to the food is a little more obscure to a beginner than "gasoline goes boom", so thought I'd bring it up. (Also, how many people in the U.S. mess that up every year?) We can't go poisoning the members or turning their hair red. Much like I live in the South, the land of "What the heck is a rhubarb?" and wouldn't know that the leaves are poisonous. (Can ya ferment the toxins out? Is it worth it? I heard it's uber tart.) "Poisonous" poke sallet with fatback, garlic and onions though....yum!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandalftheGold Posted October 9, 2017 Author Share Posted October 9, 2017 Unrelated but rhubarb pie is the best pie. I would have come up with a snappy comeback but I see I was beaten to it. I agree copper can be dangerous while cooking acidic foods but that's why you don't cook acidic foods in copper cook wear. I personally don't own any copper pots but have used them and they are pretty great. I would def tin line it but as you can probably see from the rest of this I have no intention of casting a copper pot. Maybe if I somehow come across a copper sheet I'll hammer one out but I don't see that happening any time soon. Frosty, I believe I have 3/16ths sheet, it looks thicker than an eighth but thinner than a quarter so unless it is something weird like 5/32s 3/16 is my best guess. I was looking for eighth sheeting at the scrap yard but they only had that. At five dollars for the sheet I got I couldn't really say no. It will work, they had it, and it was cheap, all important boxes checked in my opinion. I had friends up this weekend who weren't down to try to make it, sadly, and it has been poring all yesterday and today, I don't really have a sheltered place to do this. Hopefully the rain will let up later today or tomorrow but I am pretty sure this is leftover hurricane which made its way up here so it is rather doubtful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Nobody Special said: True, boss. In fact, my favorite pots and pans either have copper bottoms or a steel sandwich with a copper middle. But the issue with copper exposed to the food is a little more obscure to a beginner than "gasoline goes boom", so thought I'd bring it up. (Also, how many people in the U.S. mess that up every year?) We can't go poisoning the members or turning their hair red. Much like I live in the South, the land of "What the heck is a rhubarb?" and wouldn't know that the leaves are poisonous. (Can ya ferment the toxins out? Is it worth it? I heard it's uber tart.) "Poisonous" poke sallet with fatback, garlic and onions though....yum!!! Poke weed sprouts are yum with butter and garlic.. stinging Nettle tea, Sumac tea.. we have a wonder patch of rhubarb. Strawberry rhubarb pie. Stocks is all that gets eaten.. choke cherries, wild aspergras, leeks, dandiliones.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 8 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said: we have a wonder patch of rhubarb. Strawberry rhubarb pie. Stocks is all that gets eaten. There are many fruits that are eaten as vegetables; rhubard is the only vegetable that is eaten as a fruit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Ah, Jenifer, Thomas: your only real difference is terminology and descriptive style. I keep a copy of "The Complete Metalsmith" by Tim McCreight, within reach for that exact purpose. It's handy for helping you ID a technique or process by someone's description and putting the commonly correct name on it for forum members to look up. Besides I have some experience with both, metal spinning is literally a combination of simultaneous sinking and raising. I can even describe how a roller tool acts like a hammer but that's for a different thread. Rhubarb isn't in the lily family like: onion, garlic, leak, etc. I THINK it's in the Bellodonna/Nightshade family like: tomatoes and potatoes, the toxins are associated with the chlorophyll. Don't eat the green parts! The gold frying pan was used by Julia Child to demonstrate it's superior thermal conductivity. She demonstrated by making a grilled cheese sandwich on her show. It was the worst looking grilled cheese I've ever seen, simple fare was NOT her forte. First she cut the crust off the bread then she fried in a good 1/2" of butter and smashed it thin with the spatula. A toasted cheese made in a toaster oven had that one beat all hollow. Ughhhh Anyway, she didn't like the gold pan at all, said it heated evenly but was too heavy and scratched more easily than teflon ,she used a plastic spatula after she saw the first scratch and even then it was scratched up by the plastic. She said it should be melted down and never used for cooking again, it couldn't be sanitized for the scratches. Fried green tomatoes anyone? Mmmmm. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Not to mention that apple seeds are toxic, Peach pits are toxic, etc. The point being that many things we commonly use can be dangerous if not used correctly. This does NOT make them bad for the purpose. It just means you have to learn the rules of using then correctly. Can you imagine what it would be like trying to get gasoline introduced as a new consumer product these days? (It's toxic, flammable, explosive, and we want unskilled people to pump it, use it and store it close to their houses!) So lets push living dangerously in as safe a way as possible! To tie this back to blacksmithing; Abraham Darby (the elder) knew about casting brass cookware using coked coal and was able to figure out a way to smelt commercially useful cast iron using coke as the fuel. THIS HAD A MAJOR EFFECT ON OUR CRAFT AND ON THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION! (When my parents invited me on a trip to England they asked where I wanted to go and I said Coalbrookdale!) Previous to this folks were forging with coal or charcoal; but to smelt the iron from ore was strictly done with charcoal. So smelting furnaces tended to own massive woodlands around them allowing them to produce their own charcoal to smelt with and have enough land that they would proceed to the next section the next year and by the time they got back to the first section the trees would have regrown enough to be "coaled" again. Here in America we are talking many square miles of forest per blast furnace. After the switch to coal some of these forests were bought by paper mills and finally some of them were made into state parks as except for being clear cut every 30 years they were in a "wild state". Last charcoal fueled blast furnace in the "Hanging Rock Region" of Ohio went out of blast during WWI. (I went to the Iron Masters conference at Athens OH and we toured the region as part of the trip). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 7 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: After the switch to coal some of these forests were bought by paper mills and finally some of them were made into state parks as except for being clear cut every 30 years they were in a "wild state". Last charcoal fueled blast furnace in the "Hanging Rock Region" of Ohio went out of blast during WWI. (I went to the Iron Masters conference at Athens OH and we toured the region as part of the trip). that must have been a blast.. To see that is.. Was the sight still recognizably or just a hole in the ground? Around here you can still find Charcoal burn pits if you know what to look for.. Of course now with building everywhere and no more farms, they are getting harder to find.. Last one I found was on the top of a hill and was easily 30ft across.. Looking back at it now, wish I have brought a shovel and dug down just a little to see what was down there.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notownkid Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 On 10/3/2017 at 9:40 PM, JHCC said: Is that how you tapped the birch tree, Frosty? Any New Englander will tell you that you have to tap the maple trees! maybe he wants to make Birch Beer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 We toured a number of blast furnace sites, some were now parks with the blast furnaces conserved and others were in the wild---one lost in the forest still had the charging ramp---with a still standing stone arch in place and a tree at least a foot in diameter growing on the arch! I attended this conference because two of my friends were presenting on "a decade of experiments with short stack scandinavian bloomeries". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 22 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: We toured a number of blast furnace sites, some were now parks with the blast furnaces conserved and others were in the wild---one lost in the forest still had the charging ramp---with a still standing stone arch in place and a tree at least a foot in diameter growing on the arch! I attended this conference because two of my friends were presenting on "a decade of experiments with short stack scandinavian bloomeries". I was able to visit a site in CT/NY border.. Was pretty neat.. The charging ramp was still in place.. Never been to Saugus though I have driven by it a million times.. Maybe next time i'm in the area.. Very neat.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 I've never made it to Saugus either---but I've read the book! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandalftheGold Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 So this was as far as I got. My 20 year old shop vac died a rather horrible death yesterday so this was as far as I could get with it. Its a bit not circular, and there is no defined edge between the rim and base, but It looks ish like what it is supposed to be. I killed my drill bit so I need to get a few more to drill and rivet it together. May not be kitchen worthy but it is definitely campsite worthy. I am going to make some sort of clip on handle extender for fire use, and a long, long spatula. I have lost my arm hair too many times cooking over the fire. I had just started to get the hang of it when the vac died, so I am going to keep this one the way it is, and probably pick up another sheet tomorrow at some point and try another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Lot of hammer dings on that one. Might want to take an extra hammer (a flea market ball peen would be good) and really round the face over, so that you don't have any edges to mar up the inside of a concave surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 5 hours ago, GandalftheGold said: So this was as far as I got. My 20 year old shop vac died a rather horrible death yesterday so this was as far as I could get with it. Its a bit not circular, and there is no defined edge between the rim and base, but It looks ish like what it is supposed to be. I killed my drill bit so I need to get a few more to drill and rivet it together. May not be kitchen worthy but it is definitely campsite worthy. I am going to make some sort of clip on handle extender for fire use, and a long, long spatula. I have lost my arm hair too many times cooking over the fire. I had just started to get the hang of it when the vac died, so I am going to keep this one the way it is, and probably pick up another sheet tomorrow at some point and try another. Punch the holes.. drilling not needed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandalftheGold Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 yeah that had been the plan. I was supposed to go to the flea market on last sunday to do exactly what you just said, but the heavens decided to dump everything they had so it was closed. I was too impatient to wait the extra week. Atleast I have some experience to bring to the table when I try again with the proper hammer. The hammer head I was using also wasn't large enough to hit without catching the rim on the handle or my fingers so I had to come down at a rather steep angle. I'm going to the market this weekend barring downpours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, JHCC said: Lot of hammer dings on that one. Might want to take an extra hammer (a flea market ball peen would be good) and really round the face over, so that you don't have any edges to mar up the inside of a concave surface. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandalftheGold Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 I was going to punch them but I was told punching too commonly miss aligns the holes when you go to rivet. That is probably wrong but that is what I was told by people who seemed to know what they were talking about, not that I would really know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 The key to good punching is careful layout. The key to good drilling is also careful layout. As long as the holes are in the right place, it's not an issue. Punch the holes in the handle, and then use those holes to mark the locations of the holes in the pan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandalftheGold Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 When you punch the pan holes do you do one rivet first? I know with drilling it was suggested to do both handle holes, then one pan hole, rivet it, then drill the other pan hole and rivet it. I guess act of riveting it will slightly miss align the pan holes if you drill them both at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 13 minutes ago, GandalftheGold said: I was going to punch them but I was told punching too commonly miss aligns the holes when you go to rivet. That is probably wrong but that is what I was told by people who seemed to know what they were talking about, not that I would really know. Miss alignment certainly can happen if not experienced but the only way to get experience is to do it.. I being an old fashioned blacksmith and using time at the anvil and forge effectively would punch the handle. Then punch one hole with the exact placement of the handle as the marked punch point.. Attach the handle with 1 rivet. Position the handle where you want it and then punch thru from the blank side. Be sure to align the punch with the hole in the handle under it.. This way the punch will be guided into the hole below it in a more accurate way.. People who promote drilling may not have enough experience or proper technique in this example to get consistent enough results.. thus suggesting a non blacksmithing way of proceeding... (What do you do if you don't have a drill? Or drill bit!) Now you know!!!!!!!!!!!! Punch the handles hot... punch the pan while it's cold.. handle will be cold also.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandalftheGold Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 with the vac broken I have no way to punch it sadly. But I am trying all this again on Sunday so we shall see how it goes. I figured punching would be fine if not better, I just hadn't seen anyone do it that way. Atleast the process seems to be pretty much the same. Make three holes, rivet it, make a fourth, then rivet it. And like I said I was planning on getting a hammer for this but couldn't and was too antsy to wait for a week. The dings give it character as a fire pan, in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 On 10/9/2017 at 11:41 AM, Frosty said: Rhubarb isn't in the lily family like: onion, garlic, leak, etc. I THINK it's in the Bellodonna/Nightshade family like: tomatoes and potatoes, the toxins are associated with the chlorophyll. Don't eat the green parts! On 10/9/2017 at 11:42 AM, ThomasPowers said: Not to mention that apple seeds are toxic, Peach pits are toxic, etc. Toxic members of the nightshade family are poisonous because of high concentrations of solanine; rhubarb (which is in a different family) has toxic leaves because of the high concentration of oxcalic acid. Chlorophyll is just the green pigment and thus isn't the problem; it it were, all green leafies would be toxic. So eat your spinach! Apple seeds and peach pits contain low doses of cyanide, but you have to eat a LOT to get sick. 52 minutes ago, GandalftheGold said: The dings give it character as a fire pan, in my opinion. They also provide nucleation sites for bacterial growth; you do NOT want that kind of irregularity on a cooking surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandalftheGold Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 I am pretty thorough with cleaning. I also almost always let it on heat sit to scorch anything off of it anyway. I can guarantee I have cooked on way worse and groaty things than that. but I will take the concern under advisement. I wouldn't say it particularly worries me though. I come from a line of people who while cooking can wipe their raw meat covered hands all over their clothes while cooking, not wash either hands or cloths, then never get sick or have repercussions from it what so ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I've made several dishing hammers from dome headed RR bolts---so many that anytime I see them at the fleamarket or scrapyard I pick them up to have a supply to hand. By putting the hammer eye at the screw thread end you get a deep dish hammer that won't catch the edge as much---I've done several gallon+ pots with them. BTW why so many hammer marks on the flat of the skillet? Shouldn't they be concentrated along the edge you are trying to turn up? (and on the outside of the would be edge?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 M. Gandalf, With respect you may very good at cleaning cutlery but that is not sufficient. Cracked cups have been found to give some unfortunate restaurant guests a bad case of lock jaw. The bacterium Clostridium tetani, takes up residence in small cracks and thus survives cleaning and anti-bacterial chemicals. If you ever get served coffee in a cracked cup, point it out to the management and ask for a fresh cup. Most places have laws against the continued use of cracked or rough crockery. They have to throw them out. The bacterium lives in the soil and almost all soil samples have some Clostridium spores in them. So you can bring into the house on dirty boots, or unwashed hands Wiping raw meat fluids on clothing is not advised. You have not had problems yet. But you can get Salmonella bacteria into your food and food poisoning & get sick. Only 20 Salmonella cells is enough for the bacterium to set up shop in your system and start to produce Salmonella toxins. Why did you not get food poisoning? Let me take a guess. You probably are not old, so your immune system is in good shape and you have had tetanus shots and, also, anti-toxoid serum. They provide immunity for 10 years and after, that booster shots are in order. Smiths and other metal workers especially should get them, as we work with scrap metals and soil. (e.g. making a JABOD forge) etc. Or the meat juices dried out on your clothing and that kills most bacteria. But children under 1 year old have not fully developed immune systems so they are vulnerable. Folks over 60, and more so 65 plus, have less efficient immune systems and are much more susceptible to food poisoning. On occasion some cases have had fatal outcomes. In other words we do not want to poison "Grandad Alfred" or "Baby Floyd". Cold shuts and well as micro fissures should be removed before use of the utensil. SLAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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