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I Forge Iron

Your Position on AnvilFire?

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I think it is good that you are considerate of others. So many are not.

With that in mind, I determine who I will talk with and what to talk about. If mentioning a web site will create conflict, I try to avoid doing so, but I won't worry about it much should somebody take exception. I no longer frequent Anvilfire as I really don't have much to offer in that atmosphere.

As for it being inhospitable, Well Jock has put a lot of effort into his site and defends the content vigorously. And he seems to apply that evenhandedly to everybody. Someways it comes out as 'he doesn't play well with others'. His way is just that. Some will grumble but shouldn't as it IS a free country.

Lastly you asked for IFI's position and I certainly don't qualify as the spokesman so Glenn will need to make his answer should he choose to. If he doesn't respond, you can read his responses on linking to other sites and I believe you will see what IFI's position is ...in the actions it takes.

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I ran across a post in the archives here that had a link to an image hosted on AF's server but the image that appeared wasn't the one intended. Rather it was a rant about stealing bandwidth while hot linking images or something like that. I think it's kinda childish.

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Kevin, that is actually rather important. Bandwidth costs money. If you are putting out a lot of images, it's money. And if you are a popular site, you don't want your images linked from here to China. Everytime that image is loaded it's more money. It is sometimes necessary to stop hot linking. Bandwidth now a days isn't free, and images aren't small. If you use PNGs for images it will greatly cut down on bandwidth usage. But i do agree that instead of an image, it was a rant is a bit over the top. Just let is say error rather then go on about it.

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Glenn has never expressed concern when I have mentioned other blacksmithing or armouring or swordmaking sites. He doesn't seem insecure about iforgeiron (and for good reason!)

My personal stance is that I leave any forum where I am told not to post about other sources of information. I'm also against the feeling that there should be only *1* site and it should have an infinite number of sub-forums on it---why I mention armour and sword sites rather than bug Glenn about adding other forums (and don't try to get other forums to grow subforums as well referring people over to here and anvilfire when needed)

Jock has spent an enourmous ammount of time and money on AnvilFire for a long time and is very possessive about it's content as I think he sees anvilfire as one of his greatest accomplishments. It's interesting that some people left anvilfire because he didn't kick off an unpleasent person that was causing trouble at that time; perhaps too hospitable? I thought so mourning the loss of some good folks; but it's his site and his rules---like the "we don't do people's homework" rule I'm firmly behind!

I've also posted about armour and swordmaking sites over at anvilfire with no complaints.
Of course I function as a sub moderator on historical smithing on anvilfire so I guess I may be part of the problem....


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Personally I've never had a problem between blacksmith websites. There are some that I don't check as often, mostly because of the format they are presented in. Additionally I don't think I have ever run across specific instructions on any blacksmithing website to the effect of "don't mention other webpages."

That being said... I always kind of assumed that linking to/suggesting forum B while posting to forum A is, while not necessarily rude, somewhat in bad form. Therefore I kind of picked up on a habit that I'd observed in others. Instead of referring to another website by name, I'll generally use the term "across the street." In my view there are generally three major blacksmithing websites, so it isn't too hard to figure out which of the other two is being referred to.
-Aaron @ the SCF

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What is IFI's stance towards other site and what sites should you not mention another website on?
We support the blacksmithing and metalworking communities. We refer questions to the best source for information, usually with a direct link to that site or location. Of all the referrals made from IForgeIron only one site has objected, Anvilfire. Jock Dempsey has requested that no images and no text from Anvilfire be used anywhere else on the internet. We therefore no longer link into his site for that reason.

Anvilfire bandwidth is not an issue as the site is mostly text with comparatively few images. The bandwidth needed for text is small. If the image bandwidth is an issue, it is a simple matter for the site admin to disable the linking feature. IForgeIron has almost 6,000 images in the IForgeIron Gallery, many more images in the IForgeIron Forum, and almost 600 imaged based Blueprints (how-to tutorials). Even with all these images, bandwidth is not an issue for IForgeIron.

Jock has put a lot of effort into his site and defends the content vigorously.
Anvilfire is only 3 years older than IForgeIron. I will not address the time and effort that has gone into developing either site, as it was a personal choice made by the site administrators.
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business is business....

I have learned and still learn a lot from anvilfire....it has been a long while since I have been in the slack tub pub...but chats usually turn into conversations about the weather so I try to stay away from most of them. But his site hols a copiuos amount of great information.

I frequent several forums...this one gets most of my time....but they all have something good to offer with different rules. I consider myself "a guest in their house" and follow the rules to the best of my ability on all out of respect and appreciation.

I am here on IFI because of the beginnings on anvilfire, and found forgemagic because of IFI(I think Thomas posted a link years ago) and b/c of Glenn helping when it was down, and found MAF because of IFI. All in all I say I tend to feel lucky they are all out there for me to learn from.

my .02

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Kevin, that is actually rather important. Bandwidth costs money. If you are putting out a lot of images, it's money. And if you are a popular site, you don't want your images linked from here to China. Everytime that image is loaded it's more money. It is sometimes necessary to stop hot linking. Bandwidth now a days isn't free, and images aren't small. If you use PNGs for images it will greatly cut down on bandwidth usage. But i do agree that instead of an image, it was a rant is a bit over the top. Just let is say error rather then go on about it.

So what is the problem with China?
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information is power

very true, but hyperlinks are relevancy

somewhere in almost every search engine algorithm the number of hyperlinks pointing into and out of a page is weighed

as an expression

a very common one, "from here to China" is halfway around the world, in all directions :P
(a bit shorter over the top then under the bottom of course)

Its a very common American expression, but may date back even further to the age of Sail in the English language
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Jock over at anvilfire had a problem once with someone using his pictures of cast iron anvils in their E-Bay adds that grossly misrepresented them as being great, top of the line blacksmith anvils. The fellow even gave him flack about his copyrighted pictures trying to claim that they were his---even though it was demonstratable that they came directly from anvilfire. Not wanting to have his site be linked to a scam on blacksmiths he reacted strongly to that.

Matt could you show where Jock is down on other smithing sites? Protecting the content of your sites is not being down on other sites as far as I can see. Just as not letting people borrow tools from my shop doesn't mean I'm down on their shops.

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I learned about this site from Anvilfire.com I spend more time here because I like an actual 'forum' format rather than the old BBS style running chat format used at anvilfire, but both sites are a great source of information.

I also frequent the bladeforums and occasionally the armor archive (*waves at Thomas*) though I dont post much on the armor archive anymore because some members there felt that because I didnt post much that I obviously didnt know anything and started attacking me in various posts. Incidentally most of those posts are all gone now with the recent data loss at the armor archive, but the "eliteism" of a select few (based on post count too, nothing else) has made it so I just read there and chose not to post much.

I've found however that most metal working communities are very open and helpfull at pointing out other places to get help / hang out / learn. I know many people who span across many of the places that I frequent, such as Sam (ApprenticeMan) being on Don Fogg's forum, here, and bladeforums, Thomas being here, armor archive, and Anvilfire, etc.

One of the things that makes blacksmithing fun in the modern age is the information shared between these variouis sites. If not for the internet, I'd probably have lost intrest in blacksmithing before I knew enough to get the right tools to really dabble.

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I visit the sites that I like and stay away from the others. I was and am a member of anvilfire before Glenn started IFI. Jock was having some resource and time problems and was unable to keep up with the demands of the web site. This is in no way a slam against Jock or anvilfire. He simply did not have enough time between work, life and family to spend hours toiling over anvilfire. Glenn started this site not to be in competition with Jock but kind of as a sister site even though the 2 sites aren't affiliated. In the early days of IFI I remember spending many hours conversing with Glenn about this site and how he was concerned that he did not want to be in competition with Jock. Glenn let the site grow kind of naturally and it has blossomed into a beautiful thing. He has put a lot of thought, effort and time into it and all the while keeping his concern for other sites and their administrators at the fore front. Over the last few years I have seen people come and go due to differences of opinion but Glenn has done a wonderful job of keeping this site on course for us. If some one disagrees with something said they can voice their opinion but keep it civil and don't run it into the ground. We can all agree to disagree sometimes, thats what adults do. All this leads me to say one thing. Glenn doesn't do things to be vindictive or selfish. I've know him to be an upright and moral person whose love of his craft has led him to give us this wonderful gift. Everything Glenn does is for a good reason and the betterment of this site.

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I visit several sites including anvilfire and I venture into both the chat here and the pub every now and then. I am not a real fast typer or a chatter unless I'm sitting at a fire with a brew to share with friends. I have found a home here but still go next door to see whats up. It's a free country and every site serves a purpose and a person is free to chose the ones he visits. No need to rake up muck in the creek bed.


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As everyone should be able to see, there really isn't a "position" on/about Anvilfire. Like Finnr said, "Anvilfire is Anvilfire, this is IFI." Everybody, every site, every shop, household, etc, etc has their own set of rules and they should be observed/obeyed by the visitors/guests. It's just common etiquette. Nobody here is "knocking" Anvilfire, and everyone has their own opinion on it and this subject as well. If you take a look, I bet 10 to 1 that you will find that ALOT of people here either belong to AF, or found out about IFI on AF. I AM and I DID. Each Blacksmithing/Metalworking web site is helpful to all. I think that Jock's reason for protecting his site is understandable and should never be made fun of or mocked. Besides, if it was truly a problem, he wouldn't let anyone in and would just limit the site to him and a select few. So, instead of thinking or even assuming that anybody here has a major problem with AF (and I certainly can not speaking for everyone) just accept that's the way Jock wants it.

Now, I'm not trying to be rude or ranting over the discussion because that's just exactly what it is; a discussion. I hope I have not offended anybody here, but it seemed to me that some people thought that there was/is a problem here with AF just because he doesn't want his site jeopardized in such a way as Thomas Powers has stated. I think that we ALL would be all would be a little upset if someone did such a thing to Glenn and IFI. I know I would.

You could look at the bad parts of a site all you want, but all in all, the site will help you and the site or the people on the site will refer you to other sites for more information to help you or anyone on your/their endeavors. Like irnsrgn's signature states; "Knowledge must be shared or it lies dead in the mind." I, personally, support any and all sites that work towards the educational passing of informational/life knowledge to other people so that they may make a better, more meaningful life for themselves.

As primtechsmith says;

My .02


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This sounds like a very deserving, informative and interesting discussion to me.
I enjoy listening to you blacksmiths who are interested enough about certain topics to respond with information or an opinion.
This is a long winded response, but sometime it is necessary to fully review what is involved.
As an investigator for 36 years I learned that sometime to get a better defined answer to a question, it is best to make sure you ask a better defined question. I had to learn the hard way.
So I said all that to say this:
When M___Brothers said: “What is IFI's stance towards other site and what sites should you not mention another website on?” I felt M_Brothers posed a good question worth some effort to come up with a suitable answer.
I translated M_Brothers question to lean more toward an issue of some more defined topics such as the idea of copy Right Infringement and Terms & Rules of Use of this web site.
I believe that some of the older responses by Glenn will give a person a clue to what the answer to this issue may be.
I re-searched the site the best I knew how to do and this is some of what I come up with.
You can skip all the following reading just by using the “Search” field and look up the word “Copyright”. It is just contingent on how interested you may be about finding additional information!
07-14-2007 Glenn posted the following:
“It has always been IForgeIron policy NOT to use any copyrighted image or material on the site without permission of the owner of that image or material. Please be sure you are the owner of any image or material you post to IForgeIron. Please report any image or material that you feel is questionable as to ownership, so it can either be removed or permission obtained for its use. Thank you for your cooperation.”
Disclaimer Also Written by Glenn: Wednesday, 18 April 2007
“Please take a moment to review these rules detailed below.
All material on the IForgeIron sites is protected by U.S. and international copyright law, and no content is considered in the public domain unless specifically stated.
The content expressed are the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of the IForgeIron site. Any user who feels that a posted material is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you, and must be identified as such.
You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this site to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to use this forum to advertise your business, services, wares, etc. Commercial sales in the forum are prohibited. If you would like to advertise on the IForgeIron site, please contact the administrator of the forum. Any commercial use, use for profit, or any use by third parties, requires written permission from IForgeIron and may require permission from the original copyright holder (if applicable) .
You agree that any material submitted for posting to this site may be used by IForgeIron or it's assigns, for any and all purposes.
IForgeIron reserves the right to change these Terms & Rules at any time without prior notice. Your continued access or use the IForgeIron site(s) after such changes, indicates your acceptance of the Terms & Rules as changed. You shall also be subject to any additional terms posted with respect to individual sections of the IForgeIron sites. It is your responsibility to review these Terms& Rules regularly.
Privacy Please take a moment to review these rules detailed below.
IForgeIron treatures the privacy of its users, etc.
You have no reasonable expectation of privacy at iforgeiron.com. This is a community, and as such we have to deal with the occasional friction, well-intentioned or otherwise, between members of the community. We're not running a police state here, but we will review server logs and chat logs when attempting to resolve a conflict or a complaint of harassment.
If you have a conversation in a crowded coffeehouse, you can't expect that conversation to be regarded as private. Think of iforgeiron.com as that crowded coffeehouse; you can (and should) expect some courtesy, but that's not the same as a legal right.
Certain iforgeiron staff members have system administrator access, which gives them the ability to look at just about everything on the system. Every staff member with that degree of access has very strong ethical values about privacy, and as a courtesy, they'll do their best to avoid unnecessarily looking at files, server logs chat logs, etc. But it is quite possible to accidentally look at a user's files in the course of administrating the server. Therefore, once again you have no reasonable expectation of privacy on iforgeiron.com
If you don't want it to potentially be made public, then don't say it here.”
Hopefully, with some of the responses that you all have expressed coupled with what Glenn has already said about copyright issues and Terms & Rules of this web site use, will help bring clarity to this matter as it has unfolded.
I believe that when we clear the darkness of confusion away, by bringing light to issues by discussing point and counter point as we do here with our ideas and opinions, we get good results. I guess that is why we call this a forum.
One rule I try to follow in my life (the best I can) is to attack issues or problems, not people.
It seems that when strong emotion comes in the front door, it appears as though common sense and reason runs out the back door.
The fact that we can freely discuss an issue of this nature says a lot already.
Glenn has made some rules for using this site that need to be understood and respected.
Anvil Fire has their own concepts of how things are run on that site that I believe should be respected also.
When I visit someone else’s home, common sense, reason and just plain old good manners tells me that I need to comply with their rules of living.
If I don’t like how things are run in someone else’s home, then I figure that is my problem. I can either comply with there rules or most likely figure something else out.
Please forgive me for the length of this response. :(
Be safe!
Old Rusty Ted

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Well said Ted. I agree wholeheartedly. Great post.

As an aside, I frequent many blacksmith related sites. It is in these sites that I obtained a lot of the information that fostered my interest and enthusiasm for blacksmithing. It is also through these sites that I have met many talented individuals, who are readily agreeable to sharing what they know. I have met them personally, as well as only in cyberspace. I thank ALL these websites for that chance.

For the most part, I think the important thing to remember is that with the internet, we ALL have the freedom to visit whatever site or resource we desire. No one is forcing anyone to partake of anything available in the internet. However, we must all abide by the rules set by each respective website owner. Period.

My .02 worth only.

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