jacbow2 Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 So i am 15 years old and have already sold several products and would like help with what i should do before i decide to actually make a business out of it.. currently i'm just trying to think of a name but any tips are welcomed. So here are a few questions i have. How do i figure out how much to charge for my work? Should i do custom orders or just sell it after its finished? How can i get more customers? What are some good books to read or videos to watch to improve my skills? How do i come up with a name? How do i come up with a logo and makers mark? How do i know if I'm even good enough to try a business? How do i know what will sell? Feel free to add anything else that will help... I know i'm only 15 so right now i'm really just improving my skills and trying to learn more but at the same time sell something every now and then.. i will also edit this if i think of more questions. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 If you want to do this as a business check around and see what Small Business Administration help is available locally. Perhaps the local BBB has a mentoring program, etc. Next get a nice heavy duty notebook and start recording your costs. There are a lot of threads already on this site about pricing your work. They apply to someone 15 or 50! Don't fall into the trap of "I made this out of found steel so I don't include materials cost in the price" as the NEXT 20 you may need to buy steel for and if the price suddenly increases your clientele may not be happy. Found materials should increase *your* bottom line; not theirs. Videos will depend a LOT on what *YOU* will be making what will sell depends on YOUR area and YOUR skills---selling bottle openers in a dry county will not be a winning item for example. My best seller at the State Faire was rasptlesnakes; as rattlesnakes are common out here folks find the steel version amusing. Your area may not be the same. It's handy to have a maker's mark that is easy to google. Simple names are good. How to get more customers: word of mouth, advertising, demo's I suggest you do a mix of custom and spot sales; but start out as spot and NEVER spend any upfront money for a custom job until you are done with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 2 minutes ago, jacbow2 said: How do i figure out how much to charge for my work? Price is costs plus profit. To determine what to charge you 1st have to track what things cost, steel, coal/propane, tools, other costs like overhead/insurance, labor... To that you add your profit that you'd like to make. Some treat their labor as "profit" others prefer to use labor as a set cost, and profit is above that. You can also look at what items that are similar and design and quality are going for and use that as a guide. If smith X is making plain bottle openers and selling them at $20 each, selling yours for $5 is probably under pricing your work. On the other hand, if you want $50 each, is the design or quality worth the extra money over what he has? Should i do custom orders or just sell it after its finished? I know a lot of new smiths that sell their "practice" pieces to regenerate funds and put the money back into stock that they can learn more with, or to buy new tooling as they grow. In this case they make what they want and then if someone is interested they sell it. Option 2 is that someone sees your work and wants you to make something special for them. It might be taking a horse shoe from a favorite animal that passed away and making a heart from it to help remember it vs just a plain heart you made from a new shoe. Many small smiths I know do a bit of both. They make items that they know will appeal to many and will sell, say bottle openers and keep the option open to make something special if the item falls in their skill set. How can i get more customers? Getting some business cards made up is a cheap way to get your name out there. Best way is word of mouth. I tell everyone I know that if they like my work, to pass my name on to friends and family members. I've had people come and ask to buy bottle openers after seeing ones I've made and sold to their friends. I also do a few small demos or flea markets where I show my work. I've had people who saw my stuff and took a card call me later looking for Christmas gifts for family and friends. What are some good books to read or videos to watch to improve my skills? Plenty of info on good books here posted up already. Mark Aspery's books and videos are always worth looking at, but there are plenty of other ones. Joining a local blacksmithing group and watching other smiths work is a great way to network and make friends in the community and learn. These are people you can possibly call on later if you have specific questions. Classes are also a great way to improve your knowledge. You might ask if your family will give you a class as a gift for your birthday or Christmas. This is especially good if there's a specific thing you want to learn, say knife making or building woodworking tools, but generic classes will also teach you a lot. How do i come up with a name? How do i come up with a logo and makers mark? Personal preference, though catchy names can help. My logo is the monogram of my best friend in High school who passed away my senior year. I always liked the look of it and thought he did a classy job of designing it in his art class. When he passed away I choose to adopt it as a way to remember him and keep his memory alive. Others use the initials of their forge as their logo. Keep in mind if you want to do a stamp, simple can be better due to the size it may be restricted to. How do i know if I'm even good enough to try a business? I've seen some pretty ugly work made and sold. In part some of this depends on your personal feelings if your work is worth selling or not. Looking back at some of the 1st jobs I ever did I'm amazed at how crude they seem today, and how much I've improved over the years. How do i know what will sell? You can find what other people find sells well and duplicate it. In some ways it can be tough. On some days I'll sell a ton of split crosses, on others I won't sell one, but plant hangers or bottle openers will be the hot item. Keep ing good records of what sells and what doesn't will help you in the long run as well as to be able to track what you sold them for and what it cost to make them. I see more real businesses fail, not because the person can't do the work, it's because they can't run a business. If you are serious about owning your own business, whether it's in blacksmithing, construction, landscaping or whatever, take as many business classes as you can. The business side of my business is the toughest part for me I'll admit. I'd much rather swing the hammer than do paperwork, track costs, do record keeping and so on. "Side" work is almost always done at a loss for most people. It's easy to remember to track the cost of steel. It's harder to put prices on things like grinding wheels, hardware you bought 6 months ago, paint, the cost of your business cards or flea market table etc. If the idea is just to reinject money back into the hobby to help it support itself, and you understand you are doing this at a loss, that's no big deal. At least you are loosing money "slower". LOL If you truely want to make money, learn to track every little detail and expense. Programs like quickbooks can help if set up right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Note Vistaprint business cards are quite cheap; I like to punch a hole in the corner and use them for price tags---as anyone that likes my work enough to buy it gets my contact information. (My cards just list my name and phone and email address and a general location) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 That's who I use. Search on line a bit and you can usually find a coupon or sale for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 I have artist friends who sell through their Facebook pages, and I am talking about selling $500 paintings 15 minutes after posting them. There is a good thread on here about - pricing your work. Look up Dave Ramsey, and his book Entreleadership. My advice is cash flow the operation, no loans. Build it up as the business grows. Name and logo will come in time. Don't force it. The name KitchenAid came about as just a comment from one of the first testers. That brand is now known worldwide. How do you know if you are good enough to sell---when people start buying your items. Like DSW pointed out, most artistic businesses fail because they do not do the business side as they should. They want to do the fun parts , not the drudgery parts. You may end up only spending 1/2 the time you would like in the shop because you are dealing with advertising, taxes, buying material, making sales, etc... I had a machine and fab shop, and I prefer making things instead of office duties. Around 66% of businesses will fail within the first 5 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 In my experience there are 3 main factors that will bring people to you, whether you are selling widgets or providing a service: 1. Quality 2. Price 3. Marketing They are all important. You've probably seen crappy products that are overpriced sell well due to a good marketing strategy. Conversely there are high quality products that are reasonably priced which hardly get any sales. For most of us a decent balance of the three will be most beneficial in the long run. There are people I've done business with for more than 20 years and I know they are not the least expensive option around, BUT every time I need them they are there to fill the need. As that relates to selling your forged items your customers need to be happy with whatever you make for them. If they are they will come back and probably bring more people to you. If they are not they probably won't tell you. You just won't hear from them again. Personally I'd rather sell a few items of a quality that I'm proud to put my name on and charge a little more than a bunch of quickly made stuff of poor quality at a cheap price. That doesn't mean you can't sell quickly made and relatively inexpensive items, but you should be comfortable and/or proud of every piece you sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Jacbow, I've posted quite a bit in the business forum here with articles on how to price and estimate your work which might be helpful to you. Many entrepreneurs fail because they lack business fundamentals. For example, I recently encountered a businessperson who didn't understand the difference between markup (percentage applied to your costs) and gross profit margin (percentage of total that is profit) despite being in business for 10+ years. He couldn't understand why adding 25% to his subtotals would never lead to 25% of his invoiced amount being profit. 25% markup leads to 20% margin which means he's lost 5% of his expected profit on everything he's sold for over a decade. DSW's post up there suggested that price is simply cost plus profit. I would suspect that a fairly sizeable portion of the population would agree, and a significant number of that group wouldn't know whether "profit" in that formula was calculated as a margin or a markup. It's my suspicion that most people would make the same mistake as the guy I mentioned above simply because it's easier to apply a straight percentage. I realize I'm throwing around a lot of numbers and terms here and 5% doesn't sound like much. The thing is that 5% is 1/5 of what this guy was expecting to earn from his business. Maybe that still doesn't sound like a lot so think of it as accepting a job offer of say $100,000 per year, then getting paid only $80,000. That's a 20% pay cut for the entrepreneur that didn't understand these fundamentals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Another thought Can you even be a business owner at 15? In the USA a person under 18 yrs. can't legally sign a contract. What's the age of legal majority where you are? To own, let alone run a successful business you must FIRST be a businessman. Just keeping the books is a killer let along logistics, taxes, insurance, etc. etc. There are courses in running a business, accounting, etc. If you enroll in classes and practice the craft by time you're old enough to legally sign a contract I'll bet you'll have a decent chance of making a go of it. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Plenty of kids run businesses. Parents can approve contracts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notownkid Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 8 minutes ago, BIGGUNDOCTOR said: Plenty of kids run businesses. Parents can approve contracts Yup many do but the parents hold the liability for their work and business practices, depending on their position in life do they wish to do this. I think it is great a 15 yr old wants to do this and not play with his gaming stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEAP of JEEP Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 You've gotten some good advice on here, but as the father of some lazy bum teenagers, I'd like to weigh in... since my own kids have no ambition beyond the next video game. LOL First off, good for you for thinking about the business side of it at your age. My only word of caution, is find the balance at first, while you're learning. By that, I mean, find the balance where you still love to fire up the forge and move some steel around, just for the pure joy of it... but also have a part of your brain always working the numbers... how much time did this take? How much did it really cost me to make this item? Forge fuel and stock prices are important, but so is electricity, grinding wheels, and bandages. Get to know what your real costs are. As you gain in skill, your time commitment will get smaller, The bag of coal you bought yesterday for $10, might be $15 tomorrow, etc... so get to know the formula for figuring it out. Don't just figure it all out for an item, and for the rest of time, figure it will always be the same. But especially as your starting, you don't want to lose the "fun" aspect of smithing or it will become more and more of chore to fire up the forge, and at some point, you might find that becoming an accountant sounds a lot more exciting. When you do reach the point of supporting yourself/family with your smithing, then that's where work ethic should come in. When you have to pay the mortgage, and the only way to do that is by selling your wares, by then you should have a sense of duty... for now, though, especially as you're starting, don't lose the joy. Now here's what I think is the key for someone starting out and testing the waters. Learn how to sell yourself along with your product. When everything else is equal, people will buy from people they like. Example, if you're at a show and you and the guy next to you are both selling similar bottle openers for the same price, if you can engage the buyer, get them interested in your personal journey into blacksmithing, and show real interest in them, it might just get you the sale over the guy/gal that is only pushing product and couldn't care less about befriending a potential buyer. There's a bunch of great books on the subject, interpersonal communications and all, and just learning some basics about body language can really help. When a potential buyer walks up, greet them with a smile and openness and you will be miles ahead of the guy that just sits in his chair and looks like he couldn't be bothered with talking to people. One other key, especially when turning a hobby into a business, is learning to walk the line between profit and loss. In a business, you ideally want a certain amount of profit on each sale. In a hobby, motivations can vary, but for a lot of us, its just making enough to keep buying supplies and maybe get a little extra to take the wife and kids out to eat. Because of that, I have no problems dickering with people and haggling on price. I actually enjoy it, but its easy for me because my hobby doesn't pay the bills... it pays for itself, and that gives me a lot of leeway. From a purely business perspective, I lose a ton of money. From a purely hobby perspective, I'm doing better than I thought I ever would. I'm in the same boat as you, where I need to start looking at more of the business side of things, but I also know myself quite well, and know that when I do start taking the business part more seriously, I may lose the joy in just going out and moving some steel around, just to see what I can make. So I encourage you to find the line between profit and loss for yourself, and decide how close to that line you are willing to go. Are you willing to sell an item that, from the business side, should sell at $20, for as little as $15 if someone offers that? How about $10? In step one, you already figured out what the actual cost was, so you know you're break even price. How close to that, or even below that, are you willing to go to get a sale? Go below it to often, and you will need to find another job to support your hobby. Stay above it to rigidly, and you may lose potential sales as you're trying to grow your business. That's where talking to and getting to know your buyers is important. It becomes a lot easier to sell a $20 bottle opener to them for $10 when, by talking to them, you know they are also in the market for a set of custom fireplace tools that you could forge up for them... maybe you pad the price of the fireplace tools by $10 extra to make up for what you lost in the bottle opener, or maybe you even dicker on that price a little, but in the end you still come away with a nice profit. Either way, however you do it, you have to live with the decision, so make sure whatever decision you make, is one that you can be happy with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Well said. You explained that better than I did above. I will make one comment about what you said at the end. Be careful of "future" sales. I see this all the time in my actual job doing home repairs. Plenty of people will beat you up over price with the carrot that they have plenty more work to send your way in the future. You'll find very few that actually do. Most just want a cheaper price and never intend to get anything else. I usually tell people that I'm willing to do a discount on future work if it shows up. Today I may be willing to go only so low, and that price really doesn't matter if they bring more work or not. I'll give discounts on multiples however. Buy one bottle opener, it's $20, buy 5 and we can talk about $85-90 for all of them. Need 100? Then we can start talking more significant discounts based on how complicated or simple they are, if they can all be the same or need to be different etc. He'll probably have to do a deposit however that at least covers materials up front. Keep in mind with big orders, you may not see them again for quite awhile. I had one guy who wanted to resell stuff I was making for SCUBA diving. He talked big, but the stainless hammers I sold him took almost 3 years to sell retail with his additional markup. After that he wasn't all that interested in tying up his money with large quantities any longer, but still wanted that discounted price so he didn't have to raise his retail price. If you are selling to someone who will resell them, know what they will sell them for. You don't want to be undercutting them at the same time if they are near by. So if the guy 4 booths down who sells beer steins and brewing gear wants to buy a bunch of bottle openers from you and sell them at $25 each, he won't like it if you are selling them for $15 at your table. He might want you not to have those out to sell so you aren't competing with him, or he might expect that you also sell them for $25 or even higher... He may not have an issue with you doing more decorative ones and offering them for $50 each. That would make the ones he's selling look like a good bargain, but you never know. I've seen a lot of hurt feelings and bad blood come over things like this where both parties expected something different. Good communications up front would have eliminated a lot of it. I will say that if you can find someone who will help market your items it can be a big help. You may know someone who has a nursery or flower shop who may be willing to let you show your plant stands, hanging basket hooks in their shop for a small commission. It may be someone who has a beer distributor or sells home brew stuff who will put out your bottle openers.... I know a few hobbyists who do real well doing stuff like this at the local feed store, farm market or art gallery etc where friends let them display their wares There are plenty of other things that have been discussed in other threads here in the past that can be helpful as well. Stuff like how to display your wares to draw people to your booth. How to price and be able to make change at a sale and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 The part about selling yourself, and building a brand is the most important part in making sales. I have seen it many times where the brand sold an item that wasn't very good....people like a good story. A well established brand can also make sales on name alone, if people trust it. Dale Chihuly basically oversees the glass blowers in his studio today, yet his name / brand makes the sale even though he didn't directly make the item. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gote Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 There is a lot of very good advice above. I have seen the life of artists close up and I have learnt a little that I would like to add.. Selling artist's products is a lot about PR. A famous artist sells at a high price a not famous sells at a low price. The cost and effort in production and quality are of little importance. An good copy looks the same as an original signed print but it sells at a very different price. Any experiened art museum director may tell you that the stuff they had in the storage twentyfive years ago is now the prime exhibits and vice versa. If you set up business at fifteen, you should make use of the fact. There are very few fifteen year old professional blacksmiths around so make your friends tip off the local radio station and newspaper and pretend to be "very surprised" at the public interest. At the moment blacksmithing is not really "a dying art" but if the public believes it they are more prone to buy before it is too late so it might be good to hint that you are going into an uncertain business (which you are). The buying public does not understand how much skill and work there is behind a piece of blacksmithing so you should concentrate on things that are quick to make but look good. I know a painter who cannot make her living from her art even if it is very good because she invest too much time in each piece. I also knew one who made up to four paintings a day and lived comfortably on her art. When you are 25 and someone asks how long time did this take to make, you say something on the lines "It took me ten years to develop the skill so this piece has been in the pipeline for ten years." If you are able to make yourself known, the customers will come to you if not, you will need to get to the customers =exhibitions, fairs, demonstrations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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