School me on Hardy hole size.

[Thats Hot...]

The hardy hole on my HB anvil is just about 1 1/8" ... When I put a 1" sq.tube in the hole ( there is some play from side to side ) I have room for a very tight 1 1/8" I am going to make some tools and or pick some up. How tight should the shank be in the hole ?

[arkie]

Your shank should be fairly tight, but not so tight that you can't get it back out!  Most use a tapered shank, but some are straight (mine is straight).

If you need a snugger fit, you can run some welding stringers down one or two sides, then grind them down to a taper.  That way you can custom fit your shank without having to forge anything.  I have done the welding thing on several homemade shanks and it works well.  My HB has a 1" hardie hole, but it's about 1/16" over, so the welding approach works well when making hardy shanks out of 1" square bar.

[ironwolfforgeca]

get a piece of 1" x 1" sq stock from welding or steel shop - we will call that a hardie tool

look for sq tubing that's 1" ID that you're piece fits into & that's 1-1/8 " OD

the tube wall thickness  will matter !! the right size tube is out there - then weld that tube into hardie hole 7018 well work fine

I do this often for other smiths that want there anvil hardie tools all the same size

hope this helps

[John McPherson]

Short answer, there is no standard size, and they are seldom square, or squared to the body of the anvil. I have spent hours with a big triangular file getting the taper and twist out of my favorite anvil's hardy.

Here are a few ways to secure a tool in the hardy hole. Sleeve to square a bolt and nut to the face, slots and tapered wedges, and hot fitted to the specific anvil with wide shoulders to spread the stress.

[Peter Newman]

seems hardy holes vary on size from brand to brand and anvil to anvil even. I have a JHM Shaper  and its hole is 1 1/8... Down at the supply shop we have another one and some brand new in stock 1 inch GE  cutting Hardies and a couple of other kinds to none of them fit snug.  So I did as Arkie advised above welded a bead down the sides and ground to fit. you can also sleeve them with some square tubing say if your hardy is 7/8's or something smaller.

Dang John those are some nice looking and stout Hardies!

[ThomasPowers]

Folks the old anvils had hardy holes that were hot punched.  Anybody hot punching through several inches of iron/steel and getting results that a machinist would smile at?

If you are not happy with your hardy fit either modify the hardy stems or the hardy hole.  As to how tight they should fit that depends on YOUR preferences and what YOU are doing.

Me I tend to take wooden handled top tools  and remove the handles and squish them down to fit the 3 anvils I have with 1.5" hardy holes using my screw press; I also have a set of nested sq tubing pieces to adapt the 1.5 down to 1" and a couple of angle iron adapters to go to 7/8 and if I'm not happy with any of those I stick the hardy in my postvise!

[Thats Hot...]

Thanks for all the help, I was thinking on the same line as arkie,

[John McPherson]

None are mine, I learned a long time ago that nothing on the 'net is permanent, so I save anything I ever hope to see again. #2 is Jim Coke, #3 is Uri Hofi. If you hover the pointer over the pic a description should pop up.

[arkie]

As a side note to making the hardy shank a bit larger...if using square tubing around square bar makes it too large, then consider angle iron.

I had a hardy tool given me that had a 3/4" shank.  My hardy hole, again, being 1" I had to thicken the shank.  I welded a piece of 1/4" x 1" x 1" angle to the 3/4" shank on the gift tool.  That increased the shank to 1" by adding 1/4" in both directions.

[ThomasPowers]

About time to mention tools that are easy to make and help doing stuff:  One is a set of sq tubing and angle iron hard hole adaptors---saw down the corner(s) and fold out tabs to rest on the face of the anvil, file any weld ridge in the tube.  Second is a set of spaces for the postvise so when you place a piece on one side the jaw doesn't get twisted to the other.  Some folks have a ring of sheet metal pieces to make an adapter to size.  I took the common sized sq stock and cut down the middle on one end and folded the tabs out and then stamped the size on it for students who can't tell 3/8" from 1/2" by eye.  For the real small stuff   I bent a flat spiral for the top.

[dickb]

I prefer tools that don't jump around in the hardy hole, so if the tool is too loose then run a couple of welds and file or grind to your preference . While you are at it, extend the length of the shaft so it projects through the hardy hole. it's easy to drive it out if it ever gets stuck.

If you are forging hardy tools then the shaft will always fit perfect because it was formed by driving it into the hardy, Again add a little extra length make extracting it easy.

[gote]

I am lucky enough to have a hardy  hole that is a vee bit smaller than 30mm so I heat a piece of 300 square pipe and beat it into the hole. When it cools down it is a perfect thight fit in the hole. I then fit the tool into the pipe or weld it on.

I want everythimg to be a tight fit with zero wobble. Especially important to a hot cut.

[SReynolds]

I will offer this up for thought.

You have the crowd that says the hardie tools are forged into the hardie hole. Perhaps a more traditional method? Ok fine. But when you say that is the correct method I wonder about you.

The rest of the story is the fact the piece cools and don't fit.  it becomes sloppy. think about it. I have tried it . Number of times.It is quite loose.

So you the other two options. One is oversized stock.  Grind to size. I use a pneumatic grinder. Electric high cycle works well.

Then you have the one you forged to fit when hot or the one you purchased new or used. Weld the shank oversized and grind to fit.

I have some with longer shanks to allow striking from underneath.  Sone fit real tight. Cuz I want that. Others, that fit tight and too short can be struck from side to loosen such as a hardie cut.

I like to forge to fit hot then I weld it up to fit cold by grinding. Still further, I have welded an insert into the original sized hole. spot weld from the bottom and you don't damage the face. And you wont need a special welding rod.

I have been informed to my face that a mig or arc welder has no place in a blacksmith shop.  You are no blacksmith if you weld anything with your electric welder. Folks say that to me today I will smack 'em. 

[gote]

I have never tried to make a solid shank since the tube is so much easier to get into the right shape. However I do NOT get it sloppy. The fit is such that I can only put it down one way. I have no measuring tool that can measure the play but my feeling is that I have maximum 0.1mm play at the edge of the hot cut.

My hole is tapering very slightly so it is wider at the top. A lot of the hardy tools I see in pictures have shanks that taper very much. I assume they could be called sloppy

If we assume that the shank is worked down to red =750°C it will shrink 7/1000 when cooling down. If the shank is 1"=25mm the resulting play will be 0.17mm. Is that sloppy/loose or is there something else at work?

I forgot- My anvil is north Swedish meaning that the hardy hole is 4" deep

[SReynolds]

The hardie hole is likely going to be tapered. I would assume it must be as they punch it out hot.

Yes, I have made a number of tools and employed the hollow tube hardie shank.  But never for a hardie cut. The pipe is welded to the underside of an individual tool such as a fuller, swage, bolster plate etc.

There are two options with the hardie cutter; you forge one with a tapered shank.  When placed into the square hole it is stopped by the wedge of the taper.

The other is to fuller the blank and draw out a shank. This creates a bolster/flange to allow the hardie cutter to rest upon the anvil's face.

The flange seem to be the more traditional method of making a hardie cut.

I have several of them and enjoy making them. But I prefer the one w/o the shank. Just a simple tapered shank that wedges into the hardie hole. 

Here is a pic of the bolster/flange style.

[gote]

My preference is definitely to have the tool sitting on the anvil face. I feel that this is the best way to transmit the force of the blow to the anvil. It also defines the position of the tool. A tool that is wedged has no well defined position. The shank will prevent any lateral movement. If it is made as a tube forced into the hole it will also prevent any rocking movement. As I wrote, the edge of my hotcut will not move more than a small fraction of a mm and it has a rock bottom connection with the anvil but I can lift it out using thumb amd fore finger. I want to have the tightest possible fit that does not jam and the tube method gives me that.

I have seen video clips where the hardy tool is made from a conical piece that is forced into a hole. Obviously I have not tested the result but I can imagine that the shank has only rim contact with the hardy hole and that there is nothing to prevent the tool from rocking. Some of the tools were not made on the hole where they were intended to be used so the fit is unlikely to be what I want in a hardy tool.

[SReynolds]

If made properly they won't rock. Yes, there is a very small contact area in relation to a hardie and the anvil, but remember this is a cutter. Not a fuller or a swage. 

I didn't mean to give impression that I make many tools with a tapered wedge fit. Only the hardie cut.

[ThomasPowers]

One think I like to do with hardy tooling that get a lot of use by students on an assortment of anvils is to step down the end of the stem and make sure it's longer than the hardy holes are, that way if some bright engineering student puts the hardy in the WRONG anvil with the 15/16" hardy hole instead of the 1" hardy hole and pounds on it it can be tapped out from below without bradding the stem in place....

[arftist]

I use larger solid stock. Draw it out until is is close then hot as heck and fit to the hardy. Slightly tapered and longer that the thickness of the heel fo easy removal. They are not loose at all, they fit very snug.

So, if you have a 1" or thereabouts hardy then use 1.125" stock. 

Never messed with tubing for hardy stems, to weak  IMHO.

[SReynolds]

I acquired a long length of 1" square tube. It has worked well for hardie shanks for various assortment of anvil tools. The big anvil has either a very well worn 1" or possible 1-1/16 perhaps? The 1" require a bit of a weld bead on all four to fit snug.

Haven't had any issue with tubing. Beats paying $ for square stock. 

Another anvil employs the 1"hardie hole but I spot welded in tge square tube. It seems the square tube I bought had a tight fitting 7/8"square bar stock inside so I'm making hardie tool shanks from the bar stick for that anvil.

[01tundra]

I use 1" square for my hardy tool shanks, My HB hardy hole is somewhere between 1-1/16" to 1-1/8" square .

To tighten everything up, I cut a small piece of either 22 or 24 ga. (can't recall) sheet metal to make a shim.  I cut it the depth of the hardy hole and bent it to make a right angle, then trimmed it so it would have to be tapped in.  It has worked flawlessly for three years now, much to my amazement.

I do break the edges of the 1" bar stock and also round off the bottom edges so the hardy tools are easy to install and remove.

You can kind of see the shim along the edge closest to the horn and the opposing edge closest to the top of the picture.  I used a small hammer and tapped the upper edge outward to match the radius of the hardy hole, which prevents it from slipping downward. 

I can either thank Frosty or Thomas for the idea.....but now that I've become old and grumpy like them I can no longer remember which one of the coggers suggested it .

 

[SReynolds]

so...there is a sheet metal 90° shim placed inside the hardie hole and it remains in there???????????????

 

if that is correct I LIKE IT!!

[01tundra]

2 hours ago, SReynolds said:

so...there is a sheet metal 90° shim placed inside the hardie hole and it remains in there???????????????

 

if that is correct I LIKE IT!!

Yes sir.  I would've never guessed that it would stay in place but it does.  The trick is to cut each end so it fits fairly snug, tap the shim down flush with the face and then basically flair it to fit the upper edge of the hardy.  I break the corners of my 1" square tool shanks so they fit snug but not too tight that they have to be driven in/out.

[SReynolds]

I have this anvil problem.  I own some real nice units but never/seldom use them. They are too nice to beat on. So I use this beat up old Trenton.  Sway back. Chipped corners.  The hardie hole is soooo bad I have to custom fit every tool by way of a welder and hi-cycle grinder. I make em long. Cuz I fit them quite tight and have to hammer then in/out. Most my tools fit that anvil.

The top of the hardie hole is so worn,  I can lay in a large weld bead where a hardie shank meets the underside of a tool and it will drop down and lay on the anvil face. It has an assortment of tools I use to take place of the anvil's top edge. As it is so broken off /chipped I need sharper edges sometimes. The rounded edges work well for fullering though!