Line Shaft Tour

[Sanderson Iron]

Thanks, Kubiack.  Actually I use the 25 pounder at least 10:1 over the 250, which I've gone months without using.  I like the 25 pounder for swaging, because it hits light and fast, and for drawing little things.  The Hackney has amazing control, so it's rarely a control preference but more of a different animal kind of thing.  The bulk of my hot work is with the Hackney, the press and the shaper. 

[kubiack]

I have seen the video of your shaper bending the long U shaped pieces. It sounds like you use it a lot, do you do any other hot operations with it?. I have a 12" shaper I use for making dies but had never thought of using it for hot work, good stuff thanks for sharing.

I'll try and keep any further questions line shafting related since that is what you started this for.

[Sanderson Iron]

It's okay to get a bit off track, Kubiack.  I just didn't intend this to be a how-to thread, that's all.  I haven't had the shaper all that long--just a couple of years--so I haven't really explored its potential yet. 

My shaper was made by Smith and Mills in Cincinnati, Ohio.  They quit making this model in 1910 in favor of the more efficient (for machining) crank shaper.  This one is a geared shaper, which means it's rack driven.  A geared shaper has the same amount of power anywhere in the stroke, forwards or backwards, regardless of stroke length.  For what I'm doing, that's better.  Crank shapers have a fast return, and their power is different depending on where in the stroke it is.  I really don't know what the potential of your machine would be.  Just play with it and see.

I tried to put a link to my video of the shaper you mentioned, with my wife bending arches, but every time it seems to want to embed it instead of just give the link. Then, when I submit my reply it all just disappears.  Can anyone help me out here?  I sure wish someone would make a belt driven computer! 

I'm including some picture of the shaper doing things other than just cutting flat surfaces.  The last one is of the arch bending form in the video, but it's not too clear without seeing it in action.  On the die plate to the right of the form, you can see an allen head screw.  This is to eject the arches on the return stroke if they stay in the form.

[notownkid]

Not that I think you need one but would love to see the expression on an OSHA inspector viewing your shop.  Every thing looks fabulous

thanks for sharing, love seeing them I'll add your shop as a possible stop when I get to your part of the world. 

[Sanderson Iron]

It is unfortunate that we even think about the government looking over our shoulders and stopping what we're doing.  We have come to accept that as normal.  That is so damaging to society.  We can't even add to our own homes without paying for permission.  It's really troubling to me when I look at old pictures and documentaries of our nation's past, because I look at them and see all the great things that people were doing and how many of those things, which were a part of life, would be illegal today--from no porch railings to cars with low economy, Edison's light bulb, kitchen wood stoves, the fire trucks in use at the time and so on.  If our government had been in existence as it is in 1800, we never would have entered the industrial revolution and been given a chance to contribute to man's great achievements.  Factories never would have been built because the technology of the time was unsafe; tall ships would not have been allowed; steam locomotives never would have been built and therefore no rails would have been laid; the Wright brothers never could have invented the airplane; the copper mines in upper Michigan never would have been opened.  The list of things today's government would have prevented goes on and on and on.

In America today, we blacksmiths are not allowed to make the great iron railings for staircases which can be designed and installed in other countries and which once were made here, because we are now told there can be no openings greater than 4 inches.  Our building code prevents it.  Even our art is restricted.  

Fortunately, so far at least, OSHA does not apply to what a person does on his own property until a certain number of employees is involved.  At this point, that number is greater than three.  It was 30 awhile ago, but I don't know what it is now.  My cousin was an OSHA inspector, and my shop is not in violation.   

Thanks for bringing this up, Notownkid.  I think a lot of people are concerned about it.

 

[Bud in PA]

At this point in my life, 72, I tend not to pay too much to the government. I treat them like I treat everyone else, don't bother me and I won't bother you. 

 

[Sanderson Iron]

I mentioned the coal forge briefly.  The blower for it runs off the line shaft too, with two handles, one on each side of the forge, connected to a blast gate to control the airflow.  When I put this in, I was amazed how much more control I had.  A lot of people use variable speed motors, which I had in Ohio, or crank blowers or whatnot, which take awhile to wind down and stop the airflow.  Having the ability, with a blast gate, to instantly cut the air from the fire is really nice.  Let's say you're running a little too hot and you see some sparks.  With a gate, you can cut the air to the fire, leave the work in it, and the iron quits burning.  By leaving it there a minute where there is no oxygen, you're okay. 

My coal fire is built on a fire pot of my own design and construction.  This is a side draft pot which makes a fire 16" long and 6" wide.  This is large enough to keep my 250 happy, and it's even enough to heat several small bars simultaneously.  Awhile back my assistant was heating five little bars in the fire so he could pick one out after another to work continually.  They were 3/8" bars tapered to 1/8", and he worked all afternoon without loosing one to the fire.  A good coal fire has better control than a gas furnace.  Unfortunately, the clinker makers on the market do not make a good fire, and as a consequence, people are turned off by coal. 

That is not to say a gas furnace does not have its place.  I have three.  These are forced air furnaces, and they all are driven by the same blower with different pipes with valves to each furnace.  I use gate valves, because they are all metal and can take the heat, and there really is insignificant pressure downstream of the blower.  (Of course, I use a ball valve on the gas line.)  To run the main furnace, I close the valve going to the small furnace and open the valve to the large one.  It's really simple.  When I use the long forge for the rolling mill, I roll it in position, attach the pipe, and close both valves to the other furnaces.  The blower I have is an antique blower called a NoCoal, and it was given to me by Fletcher Coddington when I worked for him at Arrowsmith in New York.  It's a little 1/10th horsepower AC motor.  Unfortunately, being AC, I can't feed it with the dynamo.  

Beneath the gas furnaces is an opening in the bricks which is filled with ashes for annealing. A support rack pulls out to hold the ends of long bars in the fire. It can be put on either side. 

 

[notownkid]

1 hour ago, Sanderson Iron said:

Fortunately, so far at least, OSHA does not apply to what a person does on his own property until a certain of employees is involved.  At this point, that number is greater than three.

I my state 1 employee gets you under OSHA.  I  have in the past had 15-20, that is over now!  My daughter did OSHA compliance & in house inspections for a large multistate Corp.  She grew up in my Auto Shop and would laugh when I went nuts after an inspection she stopped laughing in college when she was studying this stuff.  It is government at it's worst.  She was on a shop floor inspecting and saw a fire on a Magnesium Lathe, another operator had pulled the injured operator out of the area and my daughter took  the proper Fire Extinguisher whent in and put the fire out, she was commended by the Corp President for saving a few million $ in possible damage.  Another fellow stayed with her and passed more Exting. to her, she is trained firefighter EMT.  OSHA came in and sighted  the company many $1000 of dollar because "she didn't have proper fire fighting equipment on."  They didn't like that she had heels and a dress on, during an appeal hearing she asked if they preferred her being in underwear and bare foot?  

She had left the company now and is in mining with all new to her mine safety rules.  They told her she was hired over better informed Mine Safety people because of her record on taking charge in emergency times not turning tail and running.  Until she was old enough she watched her brother and I running in to burning buildings when everyone else was running out. 

 

[Sanderson Iron]

The worst is, they limit what we can do.  That hurts the economy, progress, and individual happiness.  The government is the reason my shop is not open to the public and does not have a sign out front.  I am not zoned for that, you see.  Stupid.  In this economy, everyone but government workers (and that includes school teachers) are struggling to make a living, yet those government workers--who are paid for by the rest of us--continue to limit our abilities to make a living.

I have two fire extinguishers in the shop: one going into the furnace room, the other in the engine room.  One of the biggest threats of fire in a blacksmith shop is things laying around, like rags, shirts and papers, which can hold a spark.  That's why there are no workbenches in the downstairs of my shop.  I had one, and I caught it on fire too many times.  I'm always careful to put rags where it wouldn't matter if they catch fire, like on metal stands or on machines.  (You can see a rag on a stand behind the universal grinder in the second picture above.)  My office is in another building, the engine house.  Still, I need to have papers and books on hand in the shop, so I had a wall desk made.  This closes when I'm working, and it opens when I need a desktop.  It's a real saver, and it doesn't take up much space. 

Above and behind it you can see the belt going through the wall to the engine house. 

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

In the mid 80's I worked in a custom woodworking shop that used a lot of massive cast iron 100+ year old woodworking tools.  They did a beautiful job with no chatter.  (our molder weighed 7 tons and would put corners on red oak you could cut yourself on, we wore gloves handing the S4S coming out of it.)   Very dangerous and the owner and manager's mandate was always "1 less person than required OSHA inspection"

Funny thing in the years I worked there the only lost time accident I mentioned was on a modern piece of machinery only a couple of years old which had all the required bells and whistles but couldn't prevent human stupidity...that new guy didn't last long as he couldn't internalize that safety was EVERYBODY's job 1; machines can't think so we have to!   (On the other hand when my first daughter was born and I showed up for work after coaching labor all night, no insurance so the job was important, the boss told me to sit in the corner and touch NOTHING that day.  A wise and kind decision.)

[Sanderson Iron]

Sounds like a nice boss, Thomas.  

A lot of people look at the belts in a line shaft shop and think they're dangerous, but actually, they're a safety feature--and I am not trying to justify them.  When a motor driven lathe or other machine is pushed past its limit, that motor keeps on trying until you kill the power or it burns out, locking the machine and anybody caught in it until help arrives.  With a flat belt, once you pass the horsepower limit of the belt, the belt begins to slip and almost immediately falls off the pulley, and the power to the machine is instantly removed.  It is a lot safer.  You can even belt a machine to have a built in limit, by keeping a drive belt looser than you might.  That lets you determine how much power is going to the machine.  I do that with my rolling mill, because I don't want to hurt it, yet it has all the power I need if things are right.  At the same time, a flat belt will carry everything it and the machine are rated for if you want it to.  

Again, the formula to determine the horsepower of a horizontal belt is: 

FMP ÷ 600 X Width in inches.  

This works several ways.  If you have a machine come in and you don't know how much power it'll require, you can figure it out by the size, width and rpm of the drive pulley.  Most companies didn't over power their machines.  The other way to use the formula is, if you don't know how fast a machine should run but do know the size of the pulley and the power it should take, use the formula to determine its speed.  I did that for my Niagra sheer by asking people with similar electric machines how big their motors were.  

Flat belts are safer.  They just look scary to people who don't know.  

[JNewman]

My pattern shop building has a line shaft still installed.  The main shaft is about 60' long, there are also 2 small  ones that ran off the main shaft.  There are no longer any machines hooked up to the shaft.  It has a large electric motor to drive it.  It is great to see your shop setup and wonderful to see all the machines being used rather than scrapped. 

Here one employee brings you under Health and Safety rules.  I know the lack of guarding on your belts would be a big issue and personally I would guard many of the belts if it were my personal shop and as I have employees I would have to guard them all.  I hear what you are saying about the some of the overkill on safety rules and it would be nice if safety inspectors had more practical experience and the leeway allowed to use common sense.  Many of the rules are getting extreme.  I have customers who had to guard belts that were 2 feet up that were only accessible by ladder or manlift. 

However Workplace deaths and maiming used to be a much more common thing,  It used to be a very common thing for woodworkers or machinists to be missing fingers or even significant parts of their hands.  My Dad was an electrician in a steel mill, in 2 years his gang of electricians lost 4 men to workplace deaths including one who he chased with a fire extinguisher till the other burning electrician died.  My Dad was nearly crushed by a machine when someone cut his lock off the disconnect and turned on the machine.  Government regulations have prevented the needless loss of many lives and limbs.  It only takes a moment of inattention to be hurt or killed with powered machinery.

[Sanderson Iron]

It is unfortunate that people look and are afraid.  If man had been so fearful two hundred years ago, where would we be today?  

Does anyone have any questions about the line shaft or anything else I have shown?    

[jumbojak]

I do have a question and I hope you haven't answered it elsewhere Joel. How much does the length of the shaft matter to efficiency? By my thinking it might be beneficial to have heavier machines closer to the engine, so less energy is lost to flexing of the shaft. Then again, it might not matter on a practical line shaft run, given the limits of building length. I'm just wondering if that might be a consideration for a line shaft design.

Also, you mentioned that the firepot in your coal forge was of your own design. Could you elaborate on the design? 

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Joel, 

First of all I want to thank you for sharing pictures and explanation of your equipment and wonderful shop.  Most have no idea what it takes to acquire the equipment , design and build with what is available let alone make a fully functional shop that will support an income.,  There is no going to Home Depot or Tractor supply for a part . You are a true master craftsman in a multitude of areas and are willing to share your knowledge.. My hat is off to you sir.. I have enjoyed this thread and the comments . Thank you is in order by many who have logged on and learned from your expertise . 

Forge on and make beautiful things

Jim

[Sanderson Iron]

Thank you, Jim, but I think that might be saying it a little strong.  Well, I guess I'll let you believe it though. 

Shaft length really doesn't matter in my size shop, Jumbojack, but the distance between the bearings and the diameter of the shaft do.  I have read that in the old, long manufactories, the shaft would get smaller as it left the power source.  

The old formula for finding the horsepower of a shaft is:

diameter cubed X RPM ÷ 70 = HP

In my experience, this is a little less precise than the formula to find the horsepower of a belt, and I think it's because line shaft pulleys grip the shaft rather than are keyed to the shaft.  For example, a 1" shaft spinning at 500 RPM should be able to transfer 7 horsepower.  I challenge you to put 7 horsepower through a pulley which only grips a 1" shaft, with no key.  You see, a belt increases its contact area as the RPM goes up, because more belt comes into contact with the pulley, but the pulley is spinning with the shaft, so its contact with the equally spinning shaft remains the same regardless of RPM.  That's my theory anyway.  In practice, make the shaft bigger than you'd think, because your pulleys are only gripping it.

Cutting a keyway in a line shaft is not recommended, and it is not practical either.  It is not recommended because, if you are using cold rolled steel, removing material from one side of the shaft can reduce the rolled stress on that side, causing it to warp.  It's not practical, because you never really know, when setting up your line, where all your machines will be belted to the line or even where there might be a bearing.  I have put pins into shafts on really problematic pulleys, but I don't like to.  

The other factor is the distance between bearings.  This too, is not so precise.  The machinery handbook gives a formula for this, but I don't know it off the top of my head (and my book's in the shop).  I will say that it will vary between the type of load the shaft will have.  For example, the shaft over my engine is rated to handle the engine's horsepower, but that horsepower is pulsing, being from a one cylinder engine.  This challenges the pulley overhead, and it bends the shaft.  (I will be mounting another bearing soon, right next to the pulley, to give it more rigidity.)  The rule of thumb is, don't put your hangers more than 8 feet apart. 

One thing to note, now that I'm on the subject of shaft sizes, is that line shafts were made on the 16th, and countershafts were made on the 1/8", 1/4", etc.  So if you have a line shaft pulley and you measure the bore where the insert goes, and your tape measure says it's 3 1/2", don't believe it--it's really  3 7/16".  Be aware of that, or your nicely turned insert won't fit, and your pulley won't come together at its perimeter. 

I hope this technical stuff is interesting to someone.  I love it, but I'm sorta geeky that way.  

I think I'll wait for another time to answer you about the fire pot, Jumbojack.  

[aplater]

Hello Joel,  I think I first saw your shop on your website a few years ago?  It inspired me to build a line shaft shop of my own.  I currently live on Vancouver Island in BC.  It's really hard to find machinery and line shaft hardware where I live.  Over the years I have been collecting hangers and pulleys where I can find them.  I have purchased both my 50lb. Little giant and my 250lb. Meyer bros. hammers from making long treks into the states,  they currently run on electric motors.  I am thinking of adding a clutch to one of my Witte generators to power the line shaft.  It would be nice to get my hands on one of the engines that the local engine club guys have but I think they would rather keep them on a trailer to show them off at the fair once a year.

Its a great feeling to be able to find broken down or discarded equipment and repair it and make it work like it used to,  it's sad to see machinery scrapped or put into museums.

Keep up the good work.

Adam

 

[Dave51B]

Aplater, I don't think you should discount the thought of getting an engine from the "engine club guys". Some I know would be honored to furnish an engine to power a shop. Especially if allowed visitation for "show and tell"...and the old geezers could be a good resource for parts and equipment. Heck I bet if you get the club involved you'll have to put in a quick-tatch system, to prevent infighting of club members. As I said before, I would be honored to hook one of my old tractors up to power a line shaft.....Most guys think those old engines were made to work, not sit on a trailer.                       Dave 

[Sanderson Iron]

Aplater, it's hard to find the hangers and bearing wherever you live, though I'm told there is more old industry here in the midwest than in the west.  Once you have the line running and belts flopping, people will tell you about all kinds of things you don't need now that you're set up.  That's just how it works.  

I don't know how fast your Witte runs.  If it's more than twice your Hammer and you are going to run the countershaft above the engine slower, put the clutch on the slow shaft, on the countershaft, above the engine and not on the engine where the smaller pulley would be.  That lets your belt run without load before the line is engaged.  If that belt and the pulleys are not turning when you engage the clutch, you'll have a hard time starting the line because the small pulley (on the engine) will slip its belt.  When a belt starts out from a dead still, it has only half (or less) its circumference contacting the belt per minute, right?  It has very little power.  That's because there is no motion in the equation, of course.  

From the countershaft to the line shaft, use pulleys as big as you can find, twice the power of the engine if possible.  With the clutch on that countershaft, they will be the pulleys to start the shop from a standstill, but since they're oversized, they'll be fine.  

This gets back to something I said earlier about looking for an engine that runs about the same speed as your line.  My Reid runs 185, and so does the line in the engine room, and so does my 250.  The Reid's clutch is on the engine, but being a slow engine, the pulley is big--24", 12" wide, with a matching pulley above it.  But the new engine I'm installing runs quite a bit faster, so I'm putting the clutch overhead so the belt will have all its power available when the clutch is engaged.

Did this make sense?  In the pictures below you can see the difference between the two engines' pulleys and see what I mean.  That's one beast of a clutch on that Reid.

You know, I think I talked with you on the phone once.  Did you call me?  or email me?  If it wasn't you, there might be a line shaft shop closer than you think.  

Joel

Dave's on to it. Maybe you could save a steam engine or something and get everyone to help disassemble and transport it for you.  Be worth a try. 

[aplater]

Thanks Joel,  that clutch makes sense,  I will give it another shot with the engine club guys.  I have thought about reaching out to you in the past but was waiting to get a bit more of an inventory of parts before I tried to come up with a plan on how it would all come together.  I have found your posted information to be very beneficial.

I have been thinking about fabricating my own pulleys, bearings and hangers,  with such a shortage of supplies it may be the only way to get a line shaft set up.

Thanks for the replies,

Adam 

[Sanderson Iron]

I know how that is, Adam.  I didn't have the right things when I started putting mine up either.  A lot of times, you never do.  Like Jim said, we can't just go down to Home Depot and pick up what we need.  I've made a lot of bearings and hangers that work, so I'll show them to you here.  The first picture with the wooden mount shows how my main line shaft is mounted.  I was just out of college and didn't have real line shaft bearings or much to work with--but I had pillow blocks and a band saw--so to get the bearings level and in line I made these adjustable wooden bases that could slide up and down for positioning.  They're just 4 X 4's and 2 X 6's bolted together. (I ran out of money and never bought all the bolts!  Ha ha!  Still missing some!)  I used a string to get the bearings in line and on the same level, and then I put the shaft in place.  The bearings set on a rod 90º to the shaft so they can rock fore and aft.  These are the bearings I mentioned that are fed with grease cups.  It's been working for 20 some years, so I guess it'll keep on working.

The next two pictures show other pillow block bearings, but here they have steel mounts.  These are just 3/8" by whatever and riveted together.  They look more in keeping with a line shaft, or at least like a real blacksmith made them (unlike the wooden ones).  The first one is over my die filer; the second is over the rolling mill.  Notice the grease cup on the rolling mill's?  It's the kind with a T handle, so you can reach up with a stick with a notch in the end and turn it.  Handy.

The fourth picture shows the hangers I made for my Little Giant.  I made these, bearings and all.  The bearings are just thick walled pipe with babbitt poured inside.  These are held by two vertical screws for adjustment and alignment inside a ring.  The stem of the ring, mounted to the beam, is 3/4" X 1 1/2" if I remember right. The stem and ring are all one piece, riveted back onto itself.  

The fifth picture is a bearing and mount that holds the little shaft for the counter in the engine room.  It's thick walled pipe with babbitt too.  It's welded together. 

The last picture shows the bearings and mounts I made for my outside radiator.  Same idea--thick walled pipe filled with babbitt, but these are pretty crude since they're outside.  They work though. 

I hope this gives you some ideas.  You've just gotta use what you've got.  

Joel

[aplater]

Thanks Joel, thats a big help.  Those bearings and hangers look great.  I have a ring roller that I'll use to fabricate pulleys.

Thanks

Adam

[Sanderson Iron]

Whatever the engine, it needs to be separate from visitors.  My engine room is lower than the shop and office, so there's an overlook with a guard and gate so people can pass through the room without being in danger.  This guard is to code.  Separating the engine is for your own safety too, of course.  The engine is the most dangerous part of the shop, since it is raw power without any chance of a belt coming off.  All the time the line is running, there is an exhaust blower running, circulating air through the engine room.  Any open crank engine is gonna leak fumes, and if you have an exhaust leak, you'll be in trouble.  This fan is about 36" in diameter, and it runs pretty slowly.  I leave a window open whenever the engine is running.

The engine room floor is also lower in order to get the line shaft and plumbing over head.  I laid up the stones myself.  I figured it'd make a more sturdy foundation than anything else, to handle the line shaft.  That's probably true, but boy was it a job!  Not gonna do that again.

The small riveted tank at the top of the first picture is an expansion tank for the 200 gallons of coolant through the shop radiators.  There's a sight gauge in the side to tell the level. 

I'm including a picture of an old water Ruud heater I picked up with 19th century patent dates.  My plan is to use it as a space heater for the engine room and to heat water for a radiator in the office, but I don't have it plumbed yet.  There's one just like this in remarkable condition in a John Wayne movie called The Shootist. I wish I knew where that movie was shot, because I'd like to visit and see one of these set up properly.  It sure has beautiful castings. 

Kinda hard to get pictures in there with all the pipes and whatnot. 

 

 

 

[jalopy forge]

Joel

Thanks for keeping part of our history alive and working

So much from our past has been scrapped and melted down

Your shop is truly a working museum and your work is amazing

Thanks for sharing

 

 

 

 

 

[notownkid]

Is your Canedy-Otto Drill a #16?  I have a #16 on a pallet a guy gave me to avoid the scrap pile, supposed to have worked when he had removed it from a shop and it has the what I believe to be original electric motor with flat belt pulley.  I'm going to install it in my bigger garage/ machinery shop as my blacksmith shop is getting too full for something that size. 

Just looked at your shop on the net, many years ago I ran a bed planer that was about 20' long and 6'+ wide as we were planning 20 ton press breaks that went up to 6' wide & 8' high.  It had come from the scrap yard at Electric Boat in New London CT where they used it to build submarines during WWII  It ran on  DC.   We had 2 other smaller ones which we didn't use that much.  Never looked to see if it had been belt driven at some point.