Line Shaft Tour

[Sanderson Iron]

Thank you, Jalopy.  I really appreciate it.

I don't know what number it is, to be honest, Notownkid.  Wouldn't you know that's one machine I don't have pictures of other than's on my website?  Figures.  I'll take some for you so you can compare it with yours.  It's a good machine.  Sounds like an interesting planer.  My guess about the DC drive is that it could run more slowly with more torque than with AC.  Don't know much about electricity, but I've heard that's true.  

[Sanderson Iron]

I'm gonna move back to the forging area, since that's where I left off.  Like I said, the machines are arranged around the forge.  I put in the Murray (the 250) before I added to the shop, so at that time there was no "around" the forge, because there was hardly room for a vise on the other side.  Anyway, that's why the bigger hammer is in such a tight spot and the smaller hammer, the 100, is in the open.  It would be better if it were the other way around so I could have a crane to the big hammer, but that's not how it worked out.

I made a mistake by placing this hammer at an angle to the shop and not in line with the shaft.  This means the belt coming to it has to be contorted to make the trip, and that's really hard on it.  (The belt in the picture is the third one I've had on it.)  The countershaft above is positioned so that the center of the rim of the driving pulley is directly above the center of the rim of the hammers' pulley--so the belt going upwards (the drive side) has only to twist on its centerline to make the journey.  On the return side, the slack side, there's an idler pulley positioned at an angle, pulling one side of the belt inwards.  

An idler pulley is really hard on a belt, because it bends it backwards and delaminates it over time.  The advantage is that the belt has more wrap around the pulleys, so you can get a bit more power out of it, especially with sudden loads like on a hammer's start.  This idler also serves as a belt tightener.  It's mounted so that two threaded rods draw it tight.   Since idler pulleys are small, their shafts turn fast, making noise and requiring attention.  

I mentioned earlier that the engine runs the same speed as this hammer.  This allows a 1:1 ratio between the hammer and its drive, giving the belts maximum power and torque.  

This is a good hammer, with good control and enough power to handle stock bigger than I can lift.  Plus it has a nice long stroke and lots of ram adjustment for tall tooling.  Ram height, more than power, is usually the reason I turn to this hammer.  It can deliver strong single blows, which is also very nice.  But of the three hammers, I use this one the least. 

 

 

[Ethan the blacksmith]

man, be nice to come visit some day!

really enjoy the pics!

[Sanderson Iron]

On the other side of the forge is the rolling mill, which dates from the 1870's.  This is a little 3" X 4" mill, which means the rolls are 3" in diameter and 4" long.  I've rolled up to 3/4" thick, but I usually stay under 1/2".  That's pretty small for a blacksmith shop.  

The rolls are connected by helical gears which power both rolls to pull the iron through.  There is a hand wheel on top which adjusts the height of the upper roll, while the lower roll stays in the same place.  The rolls that came with this were plain rolls, but I've cut three patterns in the upper roll.  I'll soon be turning a new roll with new patterns.  

One of the difficult things to do with a hammer, press or any single blow system, is to put continuous pattern lengthwise down a bar.  It's difficult to line up the marks, even with a negative impression.  Try that with a positive impression, and it's getting close to the impossible; but the rolling mill does that nicely, because the die never leaves the work, so it doesn't have to reconnect with a previous mark.  

There is a guide on the front of the mill to keep the stock in line with the pattern, and there is a tray on the back to catch the stock coming out.  

I've already talked about this furnace, but I'll say a little more here.  This furnace has seven burners made from 3/4" pipe with a single restriction ring in the ends.  The large pipe on top, to which the burners are connected, is the manifold, and there is a pipe from there to the NoCoal blower that feeds the other two furnaces. (One blower, three furnaces, valves to control where the fuel goes.)  The manifold is large enough to be somewhat pressurized by the blower to give equal fuel to each burner.  The body of the forge is an 8" schedule 40 pipe, 51" long lined with Kaowool and has a hard split brick floor.  This heats nicely.  I can heat two or three bars at a time. I pull a bar's end out, put it in the rolls in the mill, and the mill draws the iron through while the other end is still in the fire.  

The last picture shows a frame with a pattern that I rolled.

 

[kubiack]

What type of gas are you using for your engine? We mostly have the 10% ethanol blend which does not store very long or play nicely with most of the rubber and plastics in older engines. There is still one station that keeps non-ethanol specifically for older automobiles and small engines. Have you experienced any problems using the ethanol blends or can you still get good fuel? Perhaps blending it with kerosene elevates most of the problems with modern fuels.

[Sanderson Iron]

I have experimented with something like nineteen different fuel mixtures, Kubiack, including E10 and straight gasoline.  Mixtures included various amounts of diesel, diesel and oil, kerosene, kerosene and oil, and so on, mixed with either straight gasoline or gasoline with 10% ethanol ("E10") .  The kerosene/ E10 mixture is the most flexible under varying loads, while the kerosene/gasoline tends to flood more easily under heavy loads.  There is one supplier around here that still sells straight gasoline, but it's sold bulk to farmers and not to gas stations.  I had it delivered for awhile.  

This engine has a drip oiler on both the charging and main cylinder, and this oil gets into the combustion chamber through the crossover valve, so I doubt the drier E10 is any problem at all for this engine's mechanics.  In fact, the smoother running E10 is almost certainly better for it.  There is no rubber or plastic in this engine, of course.  The main gasket is a metal gasket.  Originally, this gasket was 1/8" square copper, but I make my own out of brass channel filled with graphite packing.  It seals better for me. 

I'd be happy to post my fuel experiments, but it's probably too technical and off track for this thread.  If you want me to send them to you though, I'd be happy to.  

Joel

[kubiack]

I would enjoy reading them however I don't really have a use for the information so I would not want to waste your time. If you already have something in a format that is easy to send I would be happy to have it, if not I would prefer not to waste your time.

[Sanderson Iron]

I'll see if I can send it.  I see I have only 13 tests on the computer file; the rest are hand written, so I'll send the 13. If you have any suggestions or see any patterns, please let me know.  Not sure I explained that this engine is started on propane, is warmed to 100º and then switched to the kero-mix.  On the mix, the ignition is shut off, and it compression diesels for its run.  The fuel mixture determines the ease with which it diesels and therefore determines the timing.  Some mixes didn't diesel at all and won't run.  The notes on the sheets were for myself, so I hope they make sense to you.  I don't think I included any cuss words.  Please forgive me if i did.    

If anyone else wants to see them, I'll try to post them.  Just let me know.  Nothing secret going on here. 

Joel

[kubiack]

Thanks for the notes. I read about half way through before I got interrupted with work. I may not ever have an engine myself to use any of this knowledge but I do enjoy reading about some of the intricacies that go into making something like this work. It is fascinating to seeing how things were done when in the past when I was not around to participate in them. West Texas is a long way from Michigan but if I ever get up that way I would love to come by and see your shop in person.

[Sanderson Iron]

You're welcome to stop in any time, Kubiack.  

[yahoo2]

thanks Joel, I appreciate the photos and description. I have a few line shafts, nothing as grand as that, your insight on the wood pulleys is very helpful.

I have Graham Pressman's  recipe from the UK for Power Kerosene or TVO (tractor vaporising oil)

essentially it is 28 second heating oil 20 octane, mixed with premium unleaded petrol 98 octane

the blend ratio target is between 55 octane for hard work and 70 octane for light work

I am yet to try it, My options for kerosene in Australia are No1 heating oil or JET A-1

I started a friends old blackstone oil engine on straight JET A-1 a couple of weeks ago, I think the drum had been sitting around for years, it could have lost some of its kick, it ran very cold, unfortunately I didn't have the time to play with it.

[Sanderson Iron]

Interesting, Yahoo2.  Thanks.  I really appreciate it.  I'll take those numbers to the oil company and see what's available here.   When I first got this engine I was given some very stale gasoline (and I mean VERY stale!) that smelled like varnish and burned at a rate somewhere below kerosene when I lit the forge with it.  It was something else.  But the engine ran better on that stuff than anything I've ever had!  The ports plugged in about a year's running, so I know it wasn't burning clean.  I wish I could duplicate it though.  I have some little bottles of samples, and I've tried to have them analyzed, but nobody seems to want to make gas stale these days, so I've not found an answer other than through my own mixing experiments.  

Anybody know how to make gas stale and smell like varnish??

I've been meaning to take pictures of the different kinds of pulleys and insert combinations and show them.  Since you mentioned the wooden pulleys, Yahoo2, I'll do that today if I get time in the shop.  

 

[yahoo2]

http://www.fofh.co.uk/tech/tvo.htm

I had a dig around and found the original page

http://ryeoil.co.uk/tractor-vaporisng-oil-tvo

http://ryeoil.co.uk/ryeoilstore/?wpsc_product_category=dhoil

I used to operate a caterpillar D7 when I was a youngster, the heat from the motor would cook the petrol in the tank for the starter motor. the next morning the auxiliary motor would not start so I would drain the tank and refill it with fresh petrol and away it would go! I got cunning in the end and only put a cupful in the tank and drained it out at the end of the day.

Anyway some mornings it would have no smell and other days it would smell like french polish shellac.

[Sanderson Iron]

That's new to me, Yahoo2.  I sure appreciate the links.  I'm gonna look into this. 

On March 26, 2016 at 6:22 PM, notownkid said:

Is your Canedy-Otto Drill a #16?  I have a #16 on a pallet a guy gave me to avoid the scrap pile, supposed to have worked when he had removed it from a shop and it has the what I believe to be original electric motor with flat belt pulley.  I'm going to install it in my bigger garage/ machinery shop as my blacksmith shop is getting too full for something that size. 

 

I looked at the number, Notownkid, and sure enough, it's a 16.  Now why didn't I know that?  Hmm….  I guess drill presses aren't hammers, and I'm a blacksmith, huh?  Here're some pictures of it.  This was the very first machine I bought.  I think I was still in high school or just recovering from it.  I first ran it on the electric motor that's still on it.  When I added the countershaft with the clutch above, I just left the motor, since it didn't make sense to start a big old engine to drill an itty-bitty hole.  The motor's reversible too, which is nice for tapping holes.  I take the motor's belt off when I use the line and just let the motor spin the countershaft.  This is the only machine in the shop that can be driven by a motor.  The belt coming down is crossed in order to miss the handle on the left, but it needs to run that direction anyway.

Canedy Otto must have made a lot of these, because I've seen them around here and there.  It's a decent design, with two gears for a high and a low speed; you just shift that double rear gear up for low and down for high.  I actually have four speeds, because the line shaft drives it quite a bit faster than the motor.  High with the motor is about 400 rpm, which is pretty slow, and high on the line is about three times that if I recall.  I'll have to look it up if it matters to anyone.  This machine has a ratchet down feed.  For anyone who hasn't run a drill press with power feed, it's really nice and drills holes more accurately than you can hand feed.  The controls on this are all quite high up, so my wife has trouble running it.  I could mount it lower, I suppose, but then the table would be low too.  She prefers the Rockford anyway.

I hope you get yours running, NotownKid.  It'd be worth it.  If you find it has any missing parts, let me know and I'll send you pictures to make them.  I had to make a dog and part of the feed mechanism for this one.  That feed wheel on the right isn't original either.  Originally there was a big three handled thingy, which was missing, so I put this on it.   

Joel

 

[Bud in PA]

Hey Sanderson have you ever thought of opening your shop on the weekends as a museum. You have the coolest shop I've ever seen. Thank you for posting pictures.

[notownkid]

10 hours ago, Sanderson Iron said:

I hope you get yours running, NotownKid.  It'd be worth it

I hope I do as well.  I had never heard of Canady Otto before this came into my life.  I live in a small rural area that has a Country Store & PO and that's it.  I often go there for Breakfast on weekends when I'm home.  I walked in one morning a private Corp. Pilot who is there usually  told the guy setting next to him, this is the guy you want and he offered me a 5" leg vice for $40 I paid him and he asked didn't I want to see it first I told him if it in good decent shape I wanted it.  Then he offered a "big drill press with motor on a pallet" for FREE (Free is right up my ally ) and said he didn't want to send it to scrap, I went to his farm & looked at it, looked like a huge erector set to me, I passed and on the way home my wife asked about it and I told her I had passed on it she made me turn around and tell the guy I would take it as long as he delivered it.  I've moved it a dozen times around the  blacksmith shop, lucky I put it on movers dollies from HF. 

Glad to see yours isn't restored as mine will be operating but the next guy will  have to restore it.  Hoping this summer to get help enough to get it hung on a post in my big shop.  I had another hand drill press that seems to have made a disappearing act after a divorce a few yrs. ago but much smaller.

The only thing I see is missing so far it the top wheel you have the  electric motor on, mine the  shaft looks cut off a few inches above the machine. Looks like the electric motor ran off a flat pully where your line shaft belt is.  I will try to find some pictures I took of it in a pile if they are on this computer.  Found them, no small feat for me plus getting them to load!!  You can see the motor, original??

Thanks so much for the pictures and text on this.  My wife hopes to retire this summer and we will finish moving to our Vermont farm and be able to travel, you will be on the list, love your shop, and have sent the pictures to my son, brother in law and a bunch of others in the area.

Thanks again Joe.

Dale    aka Notownkid

 

[Sanderson Iron]

Oh thanks, Bud.  Actually, I do give group tours, though I try to limit it to one group a month.  

Nowtownkid, that's in nice shape!  Your hand lever do-hicky is in one piece, and the bevel gears that lift the table are there too.  I say, that's a fine specimen. You're gonna like it.  The table on these things is kinda lame though, especially since it doesn't revolve to align your drill.  I put a drill press vise with X Y on it, and that helped it a lot.  That is a nice motor.  In your second picture, just to the right of the pulley on the frame there's a little spring-loaded peg thing. What does it do? Any idea?  Mine has the same thing.  I'd guess it's a shield latch, but I can't see where one was mounted.  Here's a close up of my mystery thing.

[Sanderson Iron]

On April 1, 2016 at 1:29 AM, yahoo2 said:

 I have a few line shafts, nothing as grand as that, your insight on the wood pulleys is very helpful.

 

There are three companies whose pulleys are most commonly found in my part of the world (Michigan, USA), and there's quite a difference between the power they'll transfer.  The first and second pictures below show a pulley made by the Reeves Pulley Company of Columbus, Ohio.  This is a very strong design.  (It also is simple to replicate, which I plan to show in another post.)   If you have to use a wooden pulley, these are about the strongest.  It still won't carry as much as a metal pulley, but it's close if you put a metal insert against the shaft.  They're made of hard maple, and they must have used better glue than other companies, because they rarely come apart.  

My entire shop is run by a Reeves pulley, directly over the Reid.  I added a 3/8" plate with a web down the middle to give it more strength to squeeze the shaft, where the wood would otherwise collapse.  When that Ried leans into a load with its 750 cubic inch determined pulses, it's asking a lot out of a pulley.    

The third and forth pictures show another pulley with basically the same construction.  I don't know where these were made, but they're old.  One of the mills I got a lot of my pulleys and hangers from burned and was rebuilt in the 60's (1860's).  These pulleys were some of the oldest there, so I'm guessing they were made about that time. These are made of whitewood, also called tulip popular.  They are not as hard or as strong as the Reeves, but they're made big enough to compensate.  They'll carry a good load if they're clamped right. 

Another other type of pulley that's common around here (and they show up on Ebay, so they must have been sold all over) is one made in Saginaw Michigan. These things are terrible.  The glue is bad, they come apart, and the structure is so poorly thought out that the action of the grip breaks them apart.  Their spokes and hub are made of little triangular pieces that just don't stay together.  They're only fit for light loads.  The last picture is of one which once drove my shop with the small engine (now sold), and you can see how well it handled the load.  I had another one over the 250, and when I took it down, you could rotate the hub a good 20º without moving the rim.  The belted one in the second-to-last picture below is driving my big grinder, and you can see it's coming apart now too.

Hope this is useful to someone.

joel

 

[yahoo2]

2 hours ago, Sanderson Iron said:

  In your second picture, just to the right of the pulley on the frame there's a little spring-loaded peg thing. What does it do? Any idea?  Mine has the same thing.  I'd guess it's a shield latch, but I can't see where one was mounted.  Here's a close up of my mystery thing.

 

It is called a gear release pin, you are supposed to be able to hold it down and rotate the double gear until the brass release lever is depressed. I cant really explain better than that without a photo.

I would part with my eye teeth for a drill press with quill auto feed and adjustable down feed pressure, I missed one years ago and have regretted it ever since.

[turbo7]

Sanderson, thanks for taking the time to post all of this, it is really appreciated, certanly given me some homework to do.

[notownkid]

20 hours ago, Sanderson Iron said:

 That is a nice motor

Joe:        after conversing with you on the C-O #16 I got to looking at the motor, it turns out it is a Wagner 1HP type SA 110 v and of course they are out of business now (merged with Studebaker in the late '60s and my family were Studebaker dealers  right to the end)  and hard to find anything on the net about them.  It was said to be working when they took it apart.  Will consider taking it to a shop and see their reactions someday.  I also located the spring loaded pin you showed and guess I'll have to get it upright to see better.  Also explained a spare part I couldn't figure out where it was suppose to go, I think it is the motor mounting bracket they had used.  I can't seem to make it fit anywhere else.

As I was looking the drill over I was also busy cutting off legs of a steel table to shorten it to put casters on it. Strange as I started with a straight 4 legged table and now have the same table that wobbles!  Imagine that.  As I told my wife at least I can weld the legs back on and cut them again unlike working on a wooden table. Her reply was she will bet it still will wobble.  Women and children should not see unfinished work!   

Dale

 

[Sanderson Iron]

14 hours ago, notownkid said:

As I was looking the drill over I was also busy cutting off legs of a steel table to shorten it to put casters on it. Strange as I started with a straight 4 legged table and now have the same table that wobbles!  Imagine that.  As I told my wife at least I can weld the legs back on and cut them again unlike working on a wooden table.

 

Oh don't worry.  If you have four legs and one's too short, you have a three legged table, and everyone knows a three legged table doesn't wobble!  The short one's just an extra.  

You probably know this, but just in case, I'll describe one way to tackle this.  Don't measure.  Put the table on the flattest area on your cement floor and position it so the top's level. Then take a piece of, say, 3/8" steel and put it on the floor next to your leg. (Use whatever thickness you want to remove from the legs.)  Use a silver pencil and draw around the leg, moving the piece of 3/8 around the leg as you go.  Do that on all four legs.   Then use a cutoff wheel on your grinder and carefully cut at the silver pencil marks.  Presto!  A non wobble table unblemished by an unruly tape measure! 

Back on the pulleys, the company out of Saginaw also made a six spoke pulley, which I suppose was their heavy version, but I don' know that.  It's constructed with the same bits of triangular wood though.  I have only one of these, but it seems to be holding together.  This design is less common, but they do turn up occasionally.  It's still not as strong as the other two companies I showed. 

[ThomasPowers]

I worked in a woodshop once and we had a massive gang saw that my boss had machined flat (well flat for wood working...) and then leveled it in the shop.  When we were not tossing a semi load of red oak through the saw prepping it for the molder it was used to adjust tables and chairs on using the method Joel mentions.

For my hand forged cooking trivets I tend to use my screwpress---stack a center pile of flats and then adjust the legs till they touch when the ram holds everything down and flat WRT the table.

[notownkid]

When I started the cutting off deal I figured it would wobble so I wasn't disappointed.  I'll add a shim when I get the casters mounted and see if I can get another one to wobble!!  Thanks for the suggestions on leveling. 

[Sanderson Iron]

10 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

For my hand forged cooking trivets I tend to use my screwpress---stack a center pile of flats and then adjust the legs till they touch when the ram holds everything down and flat WRT the table.

What does WRT mean?  Whigs, Republicans and Tories is the only thing I can come up with.  And I still don't get what you mean with the trivets.  You squeeze them with the press until the legs bend?  Maybe I'm just too tired.  I think that's it.  I'll probably understand it tomorrow.