Forging Carver Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Hi, I am working on e build of my freon forge as some of you know. I am going to buy a regulator kit either from Zoeller forge or high temp tools. My question is, is either of these better than the other? The one from high temp is cheaper and seems to not have much in the description as far as components of the kit. The one from Zoeller has more of a description of everything included. I am going to be running a t burner on my forge. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much. http://www.zoellerforge.com/forgeparts.html http://www.hightemptools.com/propaneregulators.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 It looks to me that Zoeller is asking $36 dollars for his regulator kit, while HiTemp wants $57 dollars; how is that cheaper? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 7 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: It looks to me that Zoeller is asking $36 dollars for his regulator kit, while HiTemp wants $57 dollars; how is that cheaper? Oh sorry I must have made that confusing. I mean the burner supply line kit that comes with everything you need to run the burner from the bottle of propane. Sorry about that. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timgunn1962 Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I'd recommend the one that goes down to zero pressure every time. I tend to use 0-60 PSI regulators with my burners (use whatever maximum pressure rating is appropriate for yours), but recently bought an 8-60 PSI regulator by mistake. It is horrible: considerably more faffing about when starting and stopping. It's much easier to get a gentle start by opening the cylinder valve and then gently increasing the pressure from zero on the reg, rather than opening the cylinder valve and getting around 1/3rd of the full-pressure output. Gas flow varies as the square root of the pressure. 3 PSI is 1/10th of 30 PSI, so flow at 3PSI is 31.6% of the 30PSI flow: "about" one third. Flow at 8 PSI is 36.5% of the 60 PSI flow: also "about" one third. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
besserheimerphat Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 It looks like the Zoeller version also contains a ball valve (handy for fast shutdown if something happened) and a 1/4 x 1/8 bushing. You could probably get those items locally too, but it's another difference in the price. TimGunn, as I recall flow varies with the square root of pressure differential, not just pressure. Google says that at 60deg F, the vapor pressure of propane is about 130 psi. So if the regulator outlet pressure is 3 psi, the pressure differential is 127 psi; at 30 psi, the difference is 100 psi. 100 psi is 78% of 127 psi, which would mean that at 3 psi you are getting 88% of the flow you get at 30 psi. However, the compress-ability of gas makes the actual flow calculation a bit more complicated - the gas at 30 psi is much denser than at 3 psi so you are getting a lot more propane (BTU/cuft) at 30 psi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 Alright thank you. Zoeller is probobly my best bet then. Thank you for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjs Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) On 2/9/2016 at 5:40 PM, Forging Carver said: 2 hours ago, Forging Carver said: 2 hours ago, Forging Carver said: Alright thank you. Zoeller is probobly my best bet then. Thank you for the help. I just read a rather confusing series of posts, looked at the web pages listed and noted the following: The zoller kit costs $77 plus shipping and includes a ball valve. It is described as a 3-30 psi regulator and comes with an 8 foot hose. The high temp tool kit comes with a 0-30 psi regulator, no ball valve and no pressure guage, comes with a 5 foot hose, and costs $ 49.50 also available with a 10 ft hose and a pressure gauge for 63.95 (shipping not specified.) disclaimer I have not used either of these products and do not vouch for the accuracy of their ads. bob Edited February 10, 2016 by rjs content and clairity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 Thank you. A ball valve is pretty important to me becuase I want to be as safe as I can, and I rather have all the parts that I know will work. My next thing is going to be trying to locate mpt flare fitting. I checked the hardware store which I couldn't find them and online I can't find them. Different fitting come up and it's pretty confusing. I am going to check another hardware store and hopefully I will find it. I will save that for another post. Thank you all for the help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 How I have done it in the past is to go to a propane supply company and say "I need to connect these things together" and they have built the necessary hook up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 Oh that's a great idea! I never knew a propane supply excited, hopefully there will be one around me. On my line I think I am going to go with a connector to attach to the propane bottle, regulator, gauge, 10 foot hose, ball valve, and connected to my burner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Hold on here a second. You didn't KNOW propane suppliers existed? No wonder you've been trying to cobble together several different burner plans, you haven't bothered to read the forge burner posts. Larry isn't the ONLY person who lays out a parts list EXACTLY as you need and includes directions for their use. I just deleted my apology for being curmudgeonly in my PM response. I will tell you ONE MORE TIME exactly how to construct a forge burner. Pick ONE set of plans. READ THEM. Copy the parts and components list and visit the recommended supplier. Once you have ONLY THOSE PARTS in the plans. (FORGET the helpful idjits guessing at what MIGHT work. IGNORE THEM) NOW, FOLLOW THE PLANS EXACTLY. Cant's find the parts? Open the Yellow Pages and DIAL A TELEPHONE. Why am I YELLING? I just finished responding to your PM where it was OBVIOUS you didn't bother to read the parts list I supplied in my T burner plans posted here. NOR did you read my past PMs or posts to Iforge regarding building burners. You know I didn't used to be a curmudgeon! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Welcome Frosty! Depending on where in Northern NJ there should be some suppliers around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Oh been a curmudgeon for decades though the moniker is your designation, a good one I might add. Some days I just have to vent or update my ignore filters. Can you imagine some of these guys trying to build a Revel model, say the Golden Hind? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Not quite a credo...I don't believe that expecting people to do some of their own research is a bad thing. I am generally free with suggestions on where to start as finding out that there is a book on smithing published in 1703 is a lot harder than finding a download of it... I don't believe that cutting off people that demand to be spoon fed knowledge is a disservice to the craft. I worry about their safety if they can't think things through even the basics. There are times when exploring the craft from the ground up is a positive thing and times when wanting to explore areas dealing with explosives, high voltages, toxins should be avoided until one learns how to live dangerously as safely as possible. Re-inventing the wheel seldom produces a better wheel---until someone has a through basis in all the aspects a wheel is based on. I know people who can work with cyanide hardening, fire gilding (though their access to a mercury scavenging hood is limited at times) and I will make use of their skills and be happy to PAY for their time and efforts. Why so many people believe that my time, materials and skills should be donated to them i do not know; but I would happily suggest they recreate the medieval/renaissance method of extracting saltpeter from manure deposits...(method redacted.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 3 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: I would happily suggest they recreate the medieval/renaissance method of extracting saltpeter from manure deposits...(method redacted.) There's a great photo essay on this in one of the Foxfire books! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 Oh man frosty I am terribly sorry. Believe it or not I have read your instructions more times than I can count, as well as a bunch of posts in the gas forge section. The place where I had the difficulty was where to find the parts. Yes, the mig tips are easy to find but I wasn't sure which you recommended since there are so many different shapes of them. As far as the mpt flare fitting, personally I had no idea where to even look for one of those. I would have never thought to check a hvac place. And yes I have looked up mpt flare fittings and couldn't find a thing. Lastly, the propane supply thing is actually true. I had absolutely no idea that such a place existed. We never use propane in my house except for the grill and I am pretty sure my dad buys the bottles from the local hardware store. I have never seen one before around here, but I will look one up. Once again I am sorry to get you a bit angry, and I hope we can still be on good terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Maybe you want to check your spelling, mpt. National Pipe Thread = NPT No wonder you can't find anything!!!! Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Ah don't sweat it FC, I have crabby days when not so important things really get me. I'm sorry I was so cranky. Neil: MPT stands for Male Pipe Thread, FPT stands for Female Pipe Thread. You can use the terms with any counter person in the USA and they'll point you to the bin or hand you the part. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 Alright great! And I will try to research a bit more than I do before I ask you guys a question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 Some of you may consider this little detail as "off topic," but it's not: NONE OF THE SHORT GAS LINES IS LEGAL TO USE ON THIS KIND OF HEATING EQUIPMENT by itself!!! Department Of Transportation safety rules, which apply to all propane cylinders over four pounds (in other words anything larger than disposable canisters), with the single exception of use with approved--not homemade--barbecues (which are grandfathered in...thus far) are required to be separated from hot work or any other ignition source by a minimum of twenty feet or physical barrier. Furthermore, propane cylinders are required to be stored and used outdoors, on a concrete pad, which also means employing either a long fuel hose, or piping through a shop wall, with shorter hoses (about eight feet is practical) at the cylinder end, and at the equipment end of the run of pipe, with rapid shutoff valves (ball valves). You will not get approval from your local Fire Marshal for any heating equipment that breaks these national fire codes, which are LAW; and in case of a fire, your insurance company can leave you swinging in the breeze. So, if this is true, why are all these short hoses made and sold? Refer back to "grandfathered in" barbecues. All those cart mounted oxy/fuel torch sets you see being used in shops, are being run illegally. The cart mounted torch systems are an exception to D.O.T. rules for field work only; not shop work. Otherwise, the fuel and oxygen cylinders are even supposed to be separated from each other by twenty feet or approved physical barrier (ex. concrete bunker systems); this is the reason standard torch hoses are sold in twenty foot lengths. The cylinder cart is supposed to be kept twenty feet away from the hot work! These rules are pretty much ignored with torch sets all over the country, BUT, are most assuredly not ignored with thin walled low pressure propane cylinders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 D.O.T as in Dept. Of Transportation? Pressurized fuel gasses are very strictly regulated when transported. Does DOT have authority over our home shops, places of business, etc.? I was going to list exceptions where propane is connected to the fire type appliance by short rubber hoses but they're almost universally used outdoors. A few exceptions are portable cook tops that have built in adapters for a hose and space heaters also with adapters. I haven't checked or casually even browsed current regs but am surprised oxy acet or oxy prop torch carts are illegal, they're still for sale in any welding shop and most big box stores in the US. Well, not oxy prop torch carts but the propane hand trucks have plenty of room for a modest oxy tank. It's screamingly illegal to have your oxy acet torch connected to the tanks in the back of a vehicle, been that way as long as I remember. Seriously it was covered in jr. high school metal shop class The tanks MUST be secured to racks attached to the vehicle and when in motion the regs removed and the tanks capped. On the other hand I don't think I know a single case where it's been enforced. Can you post a link to the regs Mike? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted February 27, 2016 Author Share Posted February 27, 2016 Man they are making everything illegal nowadays. Next it's going to be illegal to own a fireplace or wood stove becuase of "fire hazard". I understand rules and regulations to keep you safe, but there shouldn't be any laws. Let the user do at their own risk, as long as they aren't affecting, or will affect, anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Interior Alaska, especially the urban areas are moving to outlaw wood stoves because of the pollution. They do have pretty severe inversion effects in winter so it's not really that unreasonable. Back before cars had decent emissions controls and gas had lead Fairbanks was famous for frozen exhaust in COLD weather. No no, NO, you can't let people take responsibility for their own mistakes! Watsamatta you? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forging Carver Posted February 28, 2016 Author Share Posted February 28, 2016 you know what, you are right. For example if someone puts their propane tank too close to their forge or barbecue and it catches on fire, you are not only at risk but so are the firemen who have to come and put out the fire. What happens is that when there is a propane tank on fire, the guy with the most experience crawls through the house and turns off the propane tank hoping that it doesn't explode. Also, that wood stove law is a little overtop. If they think they pollute, they might as well ban cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 3 hours ago, Forging Carver said: Also, that wood stove law is a little overtop. If they think they pollute, they might as well ban cars. A lot of the people in the interior think banning wood stoves is over the top too but the old type stoves do smoke and winter air circulation isn't good when an inversion layer just sits there for weeks. They don't want to ban wood stoves completely, just the old ones the new types are multiple burn zone stoves and hardly smoke at all. We have a Jotul 3 zone wood stove and within about 10 minutes of lighting a fire you can't tell it's burning looking at the stack. I miss the smell of wood smoke but. In fact there were times frozen exhaust got so bad in Fairbanks they did ban cars unless it was an emergency. Modern computer controlled fuel injected engines have much cleaner exhaust and it's been many years since road travel was banned, even in severe weather. A little common sense is a good thing on either side of the question. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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