TimeToWaste Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Hi to All, I am new to this forum and relativley new to blacksmithing. I have been reading here for a few days and am impressed with the amount of information available as well as the helpfulness and cooperation of its members. I would like to thank everyone in advance for any help they could provide for me with a hang up I've encountered in a project I'm contemplating . I would like to attempt to build a small bloom furnace but can't find small batches of ore for sale or information on how to locate some in central New York. I know of a few iron mines in the Adirondack region but am concerned with the legality of scavenging in, on or near these places even though some have been closed for decades. I read a few posts about "panning" in sandy creekbeds for iron ore with a powerful magnet to get a very rough idea of quality of ore and was wondering on the practicality of that in the creekbeds near some of these mines(have read posts describing something like this...?). I think this probably seems a bit over my head as a beginner but won't be attempting (if at all possible/practical) it until I've done a bit more general smithing and a mountain of research into bloom furnaces. I feel strongly compelled to make something truely from scratch, earth and fire into...who knows. I can't find ore there is no reason to pursue this idea and fill an aldeady sluggish mind with more gunk. Feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Welcome aboard, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the Iforge gang live within visiting distance. Setting up and running a bloomery is more than a beginner project. Check in the regional association pages here and hook up with one close to you. Mining ore and making bloom iron isn't uncommon among blacksmiths, we all get a rush out of making things out of dirt. Collecting iron ore from a creek with a magnet is as easy as dragging it along the bottom and cleaning it off the magnet. I recommend putting a plastic bag over the magnet so you can just turn it inside out and pull it off. The iron filings will be in the bag. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeToWaste Posted December 6, 2015 Author Share Posted December 6, 2015 Thank you for the quick response, I feel like it is a bit over my head for now and have alot of research to do...but maybe will start a pile of ore for future use. Will check the pages you mentioned, try to find a few like minded souls with a bit more experience. Thank you again for your experience and time. Have already learned a lot from reading your posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Iron sand in creeks is generally Magnetite from the weathering of igneous and metamorphic rocks and can be found a lot of places you would not expect it due to the glaciation of much of North America. Magnetite is considered a high grade iron ore and is what is used in the traditional tatara furnace to make tamahagane for Japanese swords. If you don't want to go old school there is a "fool proof" plans for a small bloomery furnace in the appendices of "The Mastery and Uses of Fire in Antiquity" Rehder; which you should be able to ILL at your local public library Note too that magnetite is also what the scale is that comes off iron and steel when you are smithing it So cleaning up around your anvil and powerhammer is another method of acquiring it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeToWaste Posted December 6, 2015 Author Share Posted December 6, 2015 Thank you for the information, I am going to follow that lead right away. Maybe it's time for me to do some geological research into this part of NY...kind of remember something about glaciation around here. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Search for magnetite ore mines in your area. Might be on your state geological commission website and other geological sites also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeToWaste Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share Posted December 7, 2015 Thanks for the idea arkie, I'm going to run with. I already know of at least one mine kind of near me but am not at all sure about taking material from the area much less the actual property(closed for years). I'm sure all the private land is posted and I was under the impression taking Anything off of state land is illegal. That doesn't leave me too much stomping ground. I might have to go door to door and ask permission of private landowners to check their waterways. Id prefer to do the work myself but I wouldn't be against just paying for it if I could find small batches for sale. Thanks again to All for the feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 The Dark ages reenactment group/society? Are using a bog iron approximation using iron oxide, clay and flour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Could go Viking and burn peat for fuel AND iron ore? Might find a developer who has to drain and excavate an old peat bog willing to drop a dump truck load for a shorter haul. Lots of cutting, spreading and drying but what the hey, think of the bragging rights! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 A lot of ore is non-magnetic or close to, until roasted - the goethite they took out of North Georgia for example. There are also often a lot of deposits near old mines that weren't mined for whatever reason, such as lack of local infrastructure, fuel, or water at the time. And Frosty left out the really fun bit, bog iron! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeToWaste Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share Posted December 7, 2015 Thanks to All for the responses. After a quick crash course on bog iron i was left with a few questions(wiki only knows so much). Would burning iron containing peat for fuel in a bloomery while still using ore "stack" iron production? I was also wondering if all bogs precipitate iron(unlikely, I thought) and if not how could I ascertain if it did. Thanks to all for your information, insights and encouragment. Interesting community here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Burgin Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 You could probably just burn some peat and check the ashes (With a magnet, of course) in order to find out if a bog precipitates iron. I mean, that's not much of a hassle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeToWaste Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share Posted December 7, 2015 No hassle at all. Thanks for the advice, now to search out an appropriate bog.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 most bogs do not produce bog iron. A good sign is a "oily sheen" on the water almost like someone spilled oil there. As some bog iron bogs will regenerate ore over time finding one that was "mined" in Colonial times might be a good way to get lucky! The earthy ores: bog iron/limonite/goethite are generally "dirtier ores" than magnetite but as they are abundant and easily mined and refined it can make up for it. Note if your ore is sulfur bearing then roasting it can help. BTW have you read over De Re Metallica yet to see how they did it in Renaissance Europe and I do mean *see* it's *full* of woodcuts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeToWaste Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 Thomas, yes, after a bit more reading I came across that information. I found some pics and think I've seen this before while hiking here in NY(hopefully). We have come across the sheen and always wondered what/where/how oil would appear on the surface of mountain swamps. Never considered microbial activity a possibility. I am located about 50 miles south of the Adirondack mountains and spend a lot of time hiking there and am always keeping eyes open for forest resources, ginseng, medicinal mushrooms, and now I'll be searching for iron producing bacteria in mountain bogs. De Re Metallica, may have to buy a copy just examine the artwork in better detail, amazing. Thanks for the info. Jammer, thanks for the link, I was searching for that very thing, as Thomas suggested, with no real luck. Saved me some real frustration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Sometimes my Geology degree intersects with my historical iron processes jones...I've spent a couple of years in Ithaca NY but never made it to the Adironacks; much more time in the bogs of south New Jersey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeToWaste Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 Ithica is a great place, surrounded by absolutely beautiful country. I'll find my way out there for any little reason, despite being a 2 hour drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 De re metallica is awesome, and available free online, and cheaply on amazon and similar sites. One of the few TP recommendations I'd read before I got on here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeToWaste Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 I tried a free download and had to antivirus my phone, going to keep looking but probably just buy a copy, have to fill the blacksmithing section on the bookshelf with something, Thanks Nobody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I believe the Project Gutenberg site is usually clean. I ran into them first when I went looking for Vitruvius, and Vegetius's De Re Militari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielC Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 One if my main questions is, why magnetite? Personally I feel magnetite would be a much harder first smelt than something like limonite. Magnetite ores, especially from river beds seems to be mostly devoid of a substantial amount of slag to assist in maintaining furnace heat, and protecting the bloom from decarb. We still magnetically clean our magnetite, but we also regulate the rate of drop as well with a binder. Magnetite also does not need to be roasted. There is a lot of information out there if you know how to find it. Which really is half the battle. Literature can only get you so far since parameters vary by so much that you simply cannot write a how-to book and expect everyone who follows it like a recipe to get similar results. Ore at your feet can be compositionally different than 10 feet away. One stack design can work greatly different than another. I have the biggest collection of smelting videos (from our adventures) available on the internet. Feel free to browse. https://www.youtube.com/user/TAGMushy/videos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 3 hours ago, DanielC said: One if my main questions is, why magnetite? Personally I feel magnetite would be a much harder first smelt than something like limonite. Magnetite ores, especially from river beds seems to be mostly devoid of a substantial amount of slag to assist in maintaining furnace heat, and protecting the bloom from decarb. We still magnetically clean our magnetite, but we also regulate the rate of drop as well with a binder. Magnetite also does not need to be roasted. There is a lot of information out there if you know how to find it. Which really is half the battle. Literature can only get you so far since parameters vary by so much that you simply cannot write a how-to book and expect everyone who follows it like a recipe to get similar results. Ore at your feet can be compositionally different than 10 feet away. One stack design can work greatly different than another. I have the biggest collection of smelting videos (from our adventures) available on the internet. Feel free to browse. https://www.youtube.com/user/TAGMushy/videos Can you make a suggestion for those of us who can't tell the difference between a rock and limonite? I have an old abandoned mine nearby that was closed in the 80s (I think) and I figured I could find some ore there but to be honest I haven't a clue how to recognize limonite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielC Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 It's kind of an art. Though I would start where you are almost sure there would have been foot traffic and ore. I have seen a variety of limonite ranging from a deep red, to black, to various different veins of ocre. Moss loves to grow on the iron rich rocks, as do trees. We are lucky enough to have piles that were already pulled from various shafts on top of the foothill above the ancient smelter, and deposited in front of it. Tonnage worth. We found some of the best rocks with small trees growing on them. Just knock em over and with a pick axe, uproot rocks that haven't seen light in over a century. If you are lucky enough to have the labor of others mine it out for you, you are golden. If not, you have to follow the iron rich veins and break it out if the ground yourself. I have seen various strata in the 10' deep trenches the slaves during that time had carved into the hill. We have sent about 30 samples of ore off to be tested. Other than testing it out and smelting it, that is the most difinitive way to tell. I'll take photos of some of my various limonite types we have unearthed. It may help ad a reference point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I looked up pictures online and there were so many differences between the chunks that I imagine I'd look right at some and not know it. I'm trying to narrow down right where the old iron mine is near me so I can find out who owns it and find out if I could wander around and see what I can find. thanks jammer, you posted those just before I hit the submit button. That one on top is massive and would definitely be something cool to see in person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Ask a local colleges geology department; might be able to get a TA to show you the local stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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