natenaaron Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I am reading "Bladesmithing with Murray Carter...." Not a bad read, comes off a bit full of himself though. I am just double checking something he says.He makes the case for forging knives over stock removal because the stock removed blade is weaker. According to him the stock removed blade loses most its metal and the grain is spaced further apart. A forged blade has most of it's original metal and the the grain is compressed making it stronger.Is this correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 NO. A so called ABS Master should know better than to tell people that, its proven we can not compress grains. While I prefer to forge, there is nothing wrong with stock removal, both can end up with same quality. Just more Hype Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 When you buy a piece of steel it has a history that started in a foundry as an ingot poured in a continuous system. The ingot is only allowed to cool below it's liquidus and it hits the rolls. Each successive roll reduces it's thickness and breadth while lengthening it. By time it's say 3/16th x 2" strip stock it's probably a mile or two long and it's sheared to length and finish ground to dimension.Stock removal from new stock IS a forged blade, it's been roll forged from an ingot probably between 2'x2' up to 4'x4' and a yard or two long. Any heating done in a smiths forge is going to damage the "as fine as it can get by forging" grain structure.I've known too many bladesmiths who claim forging is stronger. It's marketing hype, hardening and tempering removes any grain alteration forged in. EVEN dangerously bad grain enlargement caused by guys over heating the stock and standing there looking at instead of hammering it.While I'm not a bladesmith guy I grew up in Father's shop where spinning and heat treating metal from HC steel, copper alloys to aerospace alloys was the weekly norm.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Once apone a time forging may have further refined lower quality wraught and steels, now it simply saves material and time. One can take a 5" peice of steel and forge a 8" knife, but you cant grind one out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natenaaron Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 I had my doubts about what was written but know little about metal. I am sure I will be asking other questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Once apone a time forging may have further refined lower quality wraught and steels, now it simply saves material and time. One can take a 5" peice of steel and forge a 8" knife, but you cant grind one outWrought Iron days are the source of many of the superstitions that persist in the community. Personally when I look at the per pound cost of the high alloy knife steels I marvel at the quantity of expensive metals swept up and shoveled in the trash; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) Hello:I second what Frosty and CRS said... you CAN NOT compress grains... HOWEVER you CAN reduce the grain size by impact (forging) at the proper temp, as well as using proper thermal cycling to help reduce grain size even further....couple these two together and you will get a grain size like powdered sugar..There is a term used for centuries that is rather confusing that that is "edge packing".. this a term dates back to who knows when and it is used to describe the process of thinning out the cutting edge bevel(s), thereby reducing the grain size while doing so. This term has been misinterpreted to mean that you can "pack the atoms tighter"..which is totally wrong. There is so much folk lore and other old wive's tales that surround forging that one has to be very careful if what one reads..A lot of them are just that..an old wive's tale.. The one you are talking about is one of these.Any decent bladesmith will know that you can not "compress the grain closer together" and a so called "Master Bladesmith" that is spreading this misinformation should be spoken to in a very harsh manner and told to stop spreading this fallacy. JPH Edited October 28, 2015 by JPH spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffrat Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 I am reading "Bladesmithing with Murray Carter...." Not a bad read, comes off a bit full of himself though. I am just double checking something he says.He makes the case for forging knives over stock removal because the stock removed blade is weaker. According to him the stock removed blade loses most its metal and the grain is spaced further apart. A forged blade has most of it's original metal and the the grain is compressed making it stronger.Is this correct?In a word, No. None of that is correct. The choice to forge or remove stock is pretty much a personal choice and has very little to do with controlling the quality of the end product. Improper forging or bad heat treatment will jack up any tool (knife or otherwise) regardless of how it was shaped. Quite frankly, the arguments regarding the benefits of one method (forged or stock removal) over the other have been pretty much reduced to a pile of horse hockey. A beautifully forged blade with improper heat treatment will bend or break like a twig. The skill of the maker is what matters, not what shaping method he, or she, employs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Just following on cliffrat for me the only reason to forge a blade is to create a size, shape, style that is not readily available or from a material that is not commercially popular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 well forging is a heck of a lot more fun than grinding and as is often quoted 15 minutes forging can save an hour grinding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I think the 15 minutes forging can save a hours grinding in now just as redundant as the "compressing grain" myth. unless you have a very big or very fast power hammer or a very underpowered grinder , or are working from weird big stock. Damascus steel is the exception and you have to forge your own stock..... Yay.for a simple blade ,from flat stock I could certainly rough grind it a lot quicker than forge it . But forging is more fun! .....grinding ain't too bad when you get quick and good (it can be proper satisfying) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Ivan Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) I think in the case of a pattern welded blade, there is something to be said about forging over stock removal. If you forge a pattern welded blade as close to finished shape as possible, the pattern will flow with the contours of the blade where as stock reduction of a billet will cut out some of the patterns. As to grain though, that is controlled through HT and not the method you profile the blade. So yes, its is wrong but there is slight relevance as a reach into pattern welded blades. (Not suggesting it would make a pattern welded blade any stronger or weaker however) Edited November 3, 2015 by Crazy Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 My Bader can sure do a lot with a 36 grit belt in 15 minutes so I muse sadly agree save that I love the forge more than the grinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 'under the spreading chestnut the mighty grinder stands' just doesn't have the same ring to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffrat Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Do you know why we love to forge? I'll tell you. Because when we were all kids we were always told not to play with fire and not to hit things.Now we can do that as much as we like! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Steel doesn't necessarily come from the mill with its grain in the best possible condition. Forging does inherently give the opportunity for thermal cycling and grain size reduction as Dr. Hrisoulas mentions above, but it also gives the opportunity for a bad bladesmith to improperly cycle and screw up the grain. Assuming proper heat treatment all around, I don't think the average blade user would be able to tell the difference in performance between a forged and ground blade using the same alloy and cross section, if there is any. Both can make a great blade, both can make a terrible blade. I have had a discussion with a steel supplier who had to scrap a melt of steel (I forget the alloy) because of bad grain from the mill. He had some forging guys who were getting it plenty hot and doing some heavy forging to bring it to rough shape before final forging who had normal results from it, but everyone else had bad results. I always assume I need to normalize regardless of how the lade was shaped. Cheap insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Back in the olden days the main method they had to refine grain was to heavily forge it producing re-nucleation of grains through the dislocations formed---so "edge packing" worked but not for the reason folks usually claim for it. Nowadays we have much better alloys and thermal cycling will do the job in a much more even and controlled way. However a lot of knife claims are basic Hype trying to differentiate your stuff from everyone else's and put a reason why folks should pay extra for *your* product. Unfortunately some folks begin to believe their own copy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffrat Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 You know you are in the deep end when you start to believe your own press releases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 I would like to see a direct quote of the issue at question. I read through the book once a few years ago, and enjoyed it, though I came to the conclusion that the way Carter works and the way I work are pretty different and aimed at different outcomes. Seems like there was one or two things I took issue with, and this might have been one. I have to say, his tip on straightening twists in a blade by hammering diagonally across the profile was well worth reading the whole book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kubiack Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 This is an excerpt from his book on Google, page 46 he has an explanation as well as a drawing with the grain directions. It is in the chapter on forge welding so I would almost make the assumption that when he his referring to the grain direction he is talking about forge welded blades however his picture also shows the grain for a crane hook which would not be layered steel like a blade. https://books.google.com.mx/books?id=aTTOlliEPo8C&pg=PA46&lpg=PA4#v=onepage&q&f=false I once had a conversation with someone who forged items for a large defense contractor. He said that the items were forged to get the components close to the final shape before they were machined. He said very much the same thing that steel has a grain structure and that machining the components from billet would cut through the grains leaving the steel weaker that if they were kept intact by and forging close to the final shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natenaaron Posted November 13, 2015 Author Share Posted November 13, 2015 I will get the quote tonight. I missed your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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